Stephen Rutherford

This episode of Friendless is presented by the Saskatchewan Podcast Network. My sweet babies welcome back to a brand new episode of friendless, the only show about losing every Facebook friend I've ever made one hour at a time. As always, I am your host, James Avramenko. This week on the show, I have a former coworker of mine from Persephone theatre, as well as an alumnus of the poetry scene here in Saskatoon. The one and only Stephen Rutherford. Stephen and I talked about catch all jobs and not for profits, coping with quarantine like an astronaut. What won't go back to normal when things open back up, again, the collapse of context through digital media, sharing plates of cheeseburgers, and surprising friends with hidden talents. stick around to the end of the show for some quick updates about Friendless. But as always, that is then this is now let's just get right into it. And for now, lay back and enjoy my interview with Stephen Rutherford here on Friendless! What I'm actually really curious about is what sort of led you to that job within the theater. Because you you from what I understand about your outside, and you obviously I'd love to hear you speak more on it yourself. You have like a graphic design background. And I know you also have like a spoken word background. And so I'm just curious how those things kind of coalesce into you, you know, spending most of your day in the backroom of a theater.

Yeah, absolutely. So I started a, I was involved with Tonight It's Poetry for a number of years, which is in Saskatoon. It's a local spoken word show that happens weekly. It was on the board for a couple years after sort of being host for a while when it first started out. And also did like poster design and stuff for a while. And I worked, basically doing graphic design and other stuff before that. And before that, back when I was in university, I was like a camera operator slash sort of general, like student worker person at the like, remote broadcast, like section or things at the university. So like, sort of like, jack of all trades, content creator, I guess would be the modern take on it.

Did you have a specific subject that you were studying? Or were you just in sort of like the the AV club for university,

I was mostly like, in university, I sort of like vacuumed up all the courses, they did, they had, at the time dealing with sort of like digital art or anything that was like mixed media enough that I could kind of do my own thing. And then also painting, which I haven't done in a while, but helpful in terms of like learning color and visual composition stuff and so on. And I kind of like part of the reason I got applied for the job at Persephone initially, anyway, was that at the time, I was like, what I want to do is I want to work for like a nonprofit arts organization. And then they had like a job listing that was like, initially, I was supposed to work in box office as well. And that never really happened. I worked in the back office, but I never ended up selling tickets.

Yeah, they have that little step. They have that weird little station, like in the back corner of the box office office. Right? Is that where you were positioned?

Yeah. It was less fortified in those days. Because like now it's like a proper office at the time there was just like a bookshelf in front of it to kind of separate it. But yeah, I started out back there and then was eventually moved upstairs and shifted desks around a couple times up there. And yeah, so I sort of like I started off as one of those sort of like, here do this very weird mix of things. And sort of like my sort of unusual mix of skills and stuff ended up working out pretty well. And I do a similar thing now too, so.

And you're so you're doing, like advertising and graphic design for TCU place, right?

Yeah. They're the local like theater and Convention Center and not the rink one.

So So what are you? So you're working from home? And how have you been spending? You know, the last the last couple months? I know we saw each other, I guess this would have been. I know, we saw late October, like late August into like, early September, but we haven't really been able to see each other since then. And I'm just wondering, what are you? What else do you kind of? How are you coping with with all the I always, I always very begrudgingly use the term the new normal, but then I feel like I use it so often that I basically can't pretend to be sarcastic about it. I'm just asking the question.

Like, I mean, maybe Shanda has a more objective viewpoint on this, my partner. But like, I feel like I've been handling it surprisingly, well, like better than I wouldn't have anticipated. I don't know, I've been thinking lately about like, sort of like the there's a recent one that I forget the name of but like the, you know, movies that are like about astronauts, or like the one surviving person or whatever, and sort of like they're, like, just isolated for months at a time. And I feel like I would be like, better at that type of thing than I would have previously given myself credit for.

What do you think, is the what's the thing? That's, I mean, other than maybe the obvious ones, what do you think is the thing that's like, altered? How do I put this, what do you think is the thing that sort of altered irreparably for you, so that even when, like, even when everything opens up, and we get vaccinated, and you know, we're, we're supposedly back to normal? What do you think is the thing that you're just not going to be able to go back to?

I think, like, one of the things that, I think at least it's gonna take me a while to get used to again, it's like, all of the, those sort of, like, natural instincts around personal space and stuff. Yeah. Like, just like, I'm intensely aware of how close other people are to me in public spaces now and stuff in a way that like, people would have to get a lot closer previously, for those instincts to kick in.

What, especially now, too, with the way we know about, like, the clouds that we make, while we talk and the way we like, we don't just take up our physical space, but we take up this other sphere, around us of like germs and gross ness, and how, like, people don't wash their hands after they poo in public. And you know, and it's like, it just knowing all this other factor, I'm in total agreement, it's gonna be really hard to be like, near people, right?

Mm hmm. And it's just sort of like that, because I don't know, I've been sort of like taking note of it. And like just my those like instinctual level things, those things that like, you don't necessarily even notice, unless you're looking for them. Like your behavior, you're on sort of a gut level has changed at least a little bit.

Definitely.

And I think that's sort of like, because it's on that level, it's going to be harder to change back sort of like I think, eventually things will go back to normal. But I think it's the things that you don't think about, and just sort of instinctually do, the changes that have come about is in that level of existence, or whatever you want to call it are probably going to be the hardest to bring back because they're not things you intentionally changed anyway.

Well, it's Yeah, that's exactly I think that's the thing that is as doing my head in the most when I think about this kind of thing, because I also, you know, there's this part of me that's like, I don't want it to go back to normal. Because what was normal was wrong, you know, what would the way we were so casually wasteful the way we were so casually? ambivalent to the world, it was wrong. And so I don't want it to be normal again, like, I want us to actually take some goddamn lessons from this, you know, and I don't I don't know if we're going to I mean, I, you know, one thing I think a lot about is how so much of the rhetoric now has gone from somehow making haircuts political to now being about how vaccines will save us and our aren't we also grateful for Dolly Parton, because somehow she's connected to saving the world with vaccines, but that completely and overtly ignores the vitriol and the rhetoric around anti vaccine that has been nothing but growing in the last 15 years. And so it's like there are countries in this world who are already, essentially who have essentially eradicated COVID in their country, by, you know, following procedure by washing your hands and socially distancing, and wearing masks and staying the fuck home, paying your citizens to stay home until it's gone. And, and North America has steadfastly refused to do that. But instead now we're like, but then, you know, we're all going to spike up sometime in May, and then we're all going to be saved. And I'm like, No, like, That's bullshit. Like, if we if we're relying purely on vaccine, we're fucked. Right? And so I just can't help but feel like, you know, we've spent almost a year in quarantine, and we're not learning a single thing from it. Right. And I and so I don't know, I'm very, yeah, I don't know, I realized that was a digression. I apologize. But, but it's like coming back to the thing about, like, you know, what's going to be normal, and it's like, it's the stuff like, you know, people are putting on sort of plays with masks and stuff. And I'm like, it's still not the same, because when I went to the theater before, I wasn't afraid that I was going to potentially, you know, kill someone or be killed or like transmitted disease that would kill my mother, you know, like, I, I could just go to a play and enjoy it. And I don't think that that's going to be possible for a really long time. If, if, you know, if really, psychologically ever Right.

Yeah. And also, like, one of the things that I've really found myself missing is like, just going to a coffee shop, and like sitting and reading or writing or just like having a coffee and thinking about my day, doing casually in a way that you can't really know. Because like, technically, yes, I can go to a coffee shop. And I'll just be just sort of, like low key worried the whole time, both, like somewhat from my own health, but also, like afraid that I'll have something I don't know, and someone else will die or get very sick or whatever, because I decided to have a coffee.

That's just it really demonstrates the narcissism of the of the culture by like, we're, you know, people who now are like, going to coffee shops or going to bars or going to these places, it's like, you know, on one hand, I get it, because like, usually, these people are people who have never been able to quarantine or to shelter in place, they've continued to have jobs, they've continued to have to go out. So they sort of feel like they deserve to, and that I get it on one level at the same time, too. It's like, it's nothing but sadism to make waiters and servers, and baristas, and all these different jobs continue to serve you when it's like, yeah, like, these people should be at home, they should be paid to stay home, we should be fucking killing this thing at the source. And instead, you just desperately need another mocktail. You know, like, you fucking sociopaths.

And not just that, but also like, the restaurant industry. And I think the bar industry as well have always been ones with very narrow margins for making money. And they're like, operating at like 40 or 20, or whatever percent capacity. Like, it's impossible, it doesn't, it can't work. And it feels like by not shutting things down, at least for like some kind of circuit breaker lockdown or something. It feels like basically a way of abdicating responsibility on the government's part, for actually helping businesses.

Speaking of ownership. Right, speaking of ownership of buildings, and and the way that like served was essentially just like a landlord subsidy and, and just the way that, you know, the way that like, everybody else has been forced to go back to work, but where the fuck are the landlord's jobs? You know, what's their job? What's the, you know, like, Oh, you had equity 30 years ago. So you're allowed to just kick back and chill, like, like, I don't know, I just, there's a lot. There's a lot that this pandemic is digging out. It's really much. It's very much turning over the boulders and showing all the all the bugs that are hiding in the dark. The problem that I see is that like, we're not really working on shooing those bugs away. We're more just sort of working on rolling the boulder back. And, and that's, that's troubling for me, right.

One of the things that this has made evident to me, like in terms of like government responses, at like the provincial level and national levels in some countries and so on. Like, I feel like this is it's a large social problem. I mean, like many others, but it's something that affects us on a societal level. And if someone's political philosophy is primarily something that revolves around like individual responsibility. It seems like they're unlikely to take the type of measures that are need needed to deal with something that is like society wide. Like many, most of the governments that have actually done something have done it by basically forcing people to take precautions rather than relying on them. To listen to the evidence and medical professionals, and if someone's political philosophy is very much based around personal responsibility is like the primary thing that should be respected at all costs. The government's and officials Yeah. Like it's something that government responsibility for, like, this is what it's for. Yes. And if you don't believe that government is a force that can be used for good, or that regulation is a force that can be used to respond to crises, then it's unlikely that you can deal with something this big, effectively. I don't know, have you read or heard at all about the idea that one of the issues, I guess, with social media, as it like, is currently a force in the world or whatever is the sort of like, contextual collapse, it creates, in the sense that like, in normal human relationships for most of the span of our existence as a species, and probably before that, I guess, before we were quite human, or whatever, right? Like, the exist, usually you like, like, maybe you move to a new place or something, and you're around new people. But generally speaking, your community was the people who were around you long enough to know what you were really like. And if you like, said something dumb, or whatever, then like they had that sort of context to weigh it against. And getting to know someone on a deep level was the matter of sort of like a gradual, like, intimate revelation of what you're like, as a person and your innermost thoughts, and so on. And now we sort of exist in this state where, like, we share sometimes our innermost thoughts with this sort of, like, audience of hundreds of 1000s of strangers,

Who don't give a shit,

who don't give a shit and also don't have like, the idea that each of our thoughts exists in the context of this void. And it's completely disconnected from all of our previous or future existence. And not just that, but like goes outside of like a community of people who know us even tangentially, but to millions of strangers, potentially, who have no concept of our existence as like physical beings, even

because we're just words to them.

We're just words and will be forgotten tomorrow? So like, that sort of contextual collapse is at the core of what social media is, but also kind of explains like, the effects it has and what force

god that is fascinating. I, I, I'm gonna start doing some googling on that, because that is absolutely fascinating. And it's really what I'm driving at. So thank you for introducing that to me, because it's, um, yeah, I mean, I think about that all the time about how dehumanizing it is, right? How we're not really like, we're talking to a stranger where the occasional photo that we post and then text and, and text is so dangerous, because it's it's without, you know, without context, but it's also without all the other forms of communication that go into how humans communicate. I always get the number wrong, but but verbal communication is only something like, like 30 or 40% of the way humans communicate, like the vast majority of the way we actually interact with each other is nonverbal. And so when we're, you know, whether it's tic or a cue, or a hand wave, or a smile, or a glance or a shrug, or whatever it might be, where we point our toes, you know, all these things, play into a conversation. And when we boil it down to just the words, more often than not, it becomes nonsense. And so it's very difficult to actually interpret the truth out of it, you know, and, you know, you can't type sarcasm, you know, you can't type you know, glibness and so at and I mean, obviously, though, I think those things are being overly abused because I think we're rapidly desensitizing and alienating ourselves from sincerity, but that's a whole other can of worms, though, but does money spark joy in your life or cause you stress? If you said stress, you're not alone. For 42% of Canadians. Their biggest stressor comes from money connects us. They care about your financial well being. Money doesn't have to be stressful and connexus is here to help. The connects is hashtag money talk blog provides expert advice. Tips and solutions for all life stages and events, getting married, buying a house, budgeting, saving that cover it all. And more. And did I mentioned it's free? Check it out today at connexus money talk.ca and start feeling confident and stress free about your money. What would be your most vivid memory of our friendship?

My most vivid, I had to think about this for a bit. But for me, like the most vivid memory of our friendship, it's something that I was like, as much a witness to as anything, but it was when your wife Jennica surprised you. With a plate full of cheeseburgers from McDonald's equal to your age on your birthday in rehearsal.

I love what I love what a what a what an infamous story that became for everyone because it was like, I mean, that was my best birthday, right? Like that was like I was I was rehearsing the play that I wanted to be in I was the I was the role I had wanted for like a year. And then and you know, when we're in rehearsal, and I'm so excited, everything's fun. And then around the corner comes a plate of cheeseburgers. And like, and like what, uh, just what a joyful experience that was, and just like, how I you know, I'm just so glad that everybody got to participate in that, you know, and I'm so glad you were there. And were able to pop in, and I think even I think Carol even picked you up like a spare just in case.

Yeah.

Cuz she was like, I don't know if James is gonna want to share and it's like, Who do you think I am? I'm just gonna sit and eat 31 cheeseburgers in front of all of you like, Who do you think I am? Carol? I'm not that mean, right? Um, you know, for me, you know, the one you know what I always think about. And it actually relates back to, maybe this isn't quite the most vivid memory but, but it's something I think of quite often is the first time I actually saw you recite a poem at, I think you were guest hosting, or maybe you were doing like a sacrificial poet at one of the slams. And, and because, you know, you know, at that time, we didn't really know each other very well, we knew each other very, you know, passively tangentially. Like, we'd sort of like we'd catch up at opening nights and stuff like that. Right. And, and, and you got up and you recited just this beautiful, beautiful love poem. And remember, and I was already pretty drunk, because I first slams especially, I have to get really drunk to get the confidence to go up because like, I, I, I don't score very well at slams. I don't do very well at those. And, and so to continue to have the courage to get up, I usually have to get pretty soaked up. And I remember you getting off the stage. And I was just like, you know, like, I was just so like, shocked. And you were like, you were almost like a little insulted that I was that amazed. And I don't remember exactly what you said, but you were something like he was just something along the lines of like, yeah, I write poetry. Like, why is this a big deal? And I remember be like, Oh, yeah, don't be a dick James.

I think part of that reaction, I think, too, is that like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna expand this beyond just me and maybe I think creative people in general, it should, I tend to think that, like, if I can do something, it's not that big a deal. And the impressive thing is, like, the stuff that other people do, like, of course, like, I'm not saying that I'm by any means the best or anything like that. But sort of, like, the stuff that I do is the stuff that I do. And it's hard to have any idea how good you are or not, certainly, you'll have a lot of feelings about it. But like, you're so intimately connected with what you create, that it's almost impossible to be objective about it,

especially to when, um, I think the other side of that too is when when you meet somebody, and they're, you know, they fit the sort of parameters in your mind, right, they sort of start to and we all do it and it's a it's definitely a natural inclination, it's maybe a wrong inclination, but it's natural of like, when you start to meet people, they start to slip into boxes of like, okay, I've encountered these types of traits so that's where I'm going to put them and this is who I'm gonna believe they are and then and then every once in a while that that person will surprise you and so it's like you know, I knew you as as quiet reserved, you know graphic designer and and and marketing person. And then you get up and you recite this, this incredible love poem, right? And it's like, it's just so wildly different from what I had known about you, right? And I love those moments, you know, those are my favorite moments to demonstrate, like the breadth of the human existence within a single body, right? It's not just like we're not, we're not just the, the, the thing we we choose to show to the world, right? And, and again, it comes back to it's another big problem I find with with social media and the internet is that we're being forced to like self niche, almost, you know, we have to like, we have to choose the one thing we're interested in and forevermore, that will be the caricature that the world knows us as, and yeah, you choose to do a YouTube channel about wrestling, you will forever be just the wrestling guy and you How dare you ever have interest anywhere else? You know, and it's so boring?

Yeah, it's like, define your brand, and find your niche. And then market towards those people. It's like, well, I feel like there's a sort of, like, fundamental divide behind, I don't know, sort of like the founding ideas behind social media, and like, what works on it in practice? And definitely come? Because I feel like, and this is true of a lot of sort of the early internet, like I had, like a tripod site, which was like geo cities. Yeah. Nice. And, like, early on, I feel like everyone had their weird, like, Pokemon, fanpage or whatever. And it's like, Yeah, sure. Often poorly executed, but extremely earnest and excited about sort of like sharing the things that are special to you. And early social media, like that was sort of the idea was about self expression. And about, supposedly, anyway, like, sort of, to some degree, sharing your authentic self or a window into your life. Yeah, and us, like, ostensibly, that's still true. But we're what works well is like a carefully curated content release schedule, with a lot of thought put into it about audience about meeting metrics, maximum and

Maximum impact of when you share and all that, yep.

And it becomes this sort of thing, where there's still that sort of like, pretense of authenticity. But in order to do well, it's a weird sort of business, that you have to put a lot of thought into, if you want to make it big that way, which I don't, particularly on a personal level. But I do like social media stuff for work and so on. And, like, it's useful to know that but I feel like this sort of the theoretical ideology inter underpinning, the whole thing is fundamentally at odds with like, the business model and what it takes to succeed at it.

Yep. Well, and that, too, it's like, you know, it's like, we're not allowed to really enjoy anything anymore, where we're expected to commodify everything we like, and and we're all supposed to be, you know, you know, our own bosses and we're supposed to be these everybody's an entrepreneur and what what are you hustling? And it's just so boring to me, because it's like, you know, like this show, right? This show is like, it's just something fun that I do, and and, like, not many people listen to it. And I'm perfectly happy with that. Like, it's not it's not the thing that I expect to have on my tombstone. You know, what I mean? And, and, and, and yet, we're, that's what we're sort of expected to present ourselves as is is these like, Yeah, I don't know, social influence, just yeah, creeps me out. You know, with with, with what we've seen, in terms of the way society has, has adapted, has refused to adapt, how friendships have morphed and grown and, you know, bloomed on zoom, and all these other platforms. And, you know, we're recording this just before the New Year's, it'll come out about, you know, it'll be out in mid January, but, but when we're recording it, it's just for the new year, new year's eve. And I guess I'm just curious with for you, Stephen, looking forward. What do you think it's going to take to be a good friend in 2021?

a stable internet connection?

That's such a good answer.

It's kind of a joke answer, but like, I don't know, I do think a bit about like, how much of our communicate like our access to other people is so linked in with technology in a way that I feel like is not normally the case.

Yeah.

And also like, that makes it We're thinking about like, Okay, what happens to people who don't have stable internet connections exactly don't have that easy access to something that suddenly went from like, like, reasonably required, or like, required a fair amount to something that, like, suddenly everything relies on. And I guess, also like, to me, one of the things I've noticed is that I've had to be more active in seeking out the companionship or digital conversations with friends in a way that, like, requires a lot more forethought and stuff, maybe than like just asking a friend out for coffee or something. Like it's sort of, and also like, there's a lot more like checking of mics and like, seeing how the recording is going or whatever. Not a dig at you, not a dig at you.

I love it, though. It's

But like there's a there is that like, addition of that technical layer on onto everything into everyday communication,

the way that I feel like the new the new normal sentences, you're still muted. That's the new greeting.

And not just that, but like suddenly, everyone like we, for Christmas, we did like a, like a present opening on Christmas morning with his family via I can't remember Facebook Messenger, I guess, okay. And like, just like this, the setup and stuff and making sure that everyone can either be seen by the camera, or like that the sound is going okay, and stuff like that. It has that like extra layer of like, I don't know, audio visual, like testing and competence and stuff that, like, generally family gatherings have not required until now.

You know, it's interesting that we grew up with cartoons like the Jetsons, and we were so excited about screens being everywhere, and being able to video call everywhere, you know, I think about Back to the Future 2. And, and, and now that we've got it, we realized that we should have never wished for that, you know, that it was the wrong, it was the wrong dream. We shouldn't have been dreaming for video calling. Because it's exhausted, you know, and I, I you know, I'm so grateful for the technology. And at the same time, too. I just like, I I just, I really miss hugging people I really miss touch, I really miss just, you know, just little things, I just miss being able to like, Yeah, I just miss being able to, like, Pat somebody on the back or you know, or kind of give them a little tap on the shoulder or, you know, give them a hug goodbye. Or, you know, like, I just I genuinely miss the nearness of bodies, you know, and and. And yeah, I don't see that coming back anytime soon vaccine or no vaccine, you know, so it's, it's still gonna be? Yeah,

I miss casual human socialization. Which is probably the most alien way I could phrase that. But like, I missed being able to, like, you see someone that you haven't seen in a while, and they're an acquaintance and you like hug or whatever. And then you talk from within, like, three feet of each other. And you don't have to worry.

Oh my god, I'll see people on like our walks, we'll go for walks, and I'll see people and now we have to take a step back when we see them, you know, and it's like, it feels so unnatural. And and, and it's like, it's good. I mean, I'm not like, you know, I'm not like, I'm not trying to sound like I'm fighting against the ordinances we should be doing the more. It just sucks, right? It sucks. You know, I see. You know, I ran into a friend's roommate about a month ago and I hadn't seen him in like a year and a half. And I was so excited to see him. It was just so nice to run into this guy. And, and yeah, we see each other on the street and we have to step back and my natural inclination is just to like, run up and give a big hug. Right and it sucks. But listen Stephen, we have to wrap this up. And I'm very sorry to say we have one last thing that we got to do before I hang up on you. So Steplhen Rutherford Here we go.

All right.

We are no longer Facebook friends.

Oh there we go. I see.

What does this say? What does it say for you? I always love Does it pop up does it say like add friend Oh,

it says add friend now it just like right just finished loading right after you unfriend me.

Well, good riddance. And that's it. Thanks again to Stephen for coming on the show. I wish him all the best in the new year and dare to dream we're gonna get to see each other sometime soon. If you like the show, let your friends know. Do it. Call them up. Ask how they've been. Tell them you love them. And then tell them all about this podcast that you love, cherish and want to help grow an audience base. Share the links review the episodes, unless you're giving anything other than a five star review. Because really, if you're not giving five stars, why are you bothering? Be a friend? Give me five stars. God dammit. I know I promised some more news at the end of the show. And I realized I actually don't really have anything to report on. I have put butthead up on Amazon. It's on the print on demand. So if your excuse for not buying a copy in December was that you really wanted to cut Jeff Bezos in on profiting off of my writing. Now's your chance. The link is in the show notes. So if you want to check it out, I'm kind of proud of it. But honestly, after seeing Amanda Gorman perform, I immediately felt old and useless. So you know, there's that anyway, I wi l be back next week with an ther episode you won't want to miss because you never want to miss any episodes, because th y're all the best one yet. I hop you have a great week and I will catch you next time. B t as always that is then and th s is now. So for now. I'll say I love you. And I'll catch you soo . Fun and sa