Jensine Emeline Trondson

James Avramenko: 0:00

Friendless is a proud member of the Saskatchewan Podcast Network, which is sponsored in part by Conexus credit union and Directwest. Hello, my sweeties. And welcome back once again to a brand new episode of friendless, It's me, your host James Avramenko. back once again to continue asking the question, what does it mean to be a friend in the hellscape we currently call reality by calling up old Facebook friends and unfriending them at the end of my interview. This week, I've got a fabulous guest on the one and only painter, theatre tech Swiss Army knife and music impresario Jensine Emeline Trondson. Jensine and I discuss her miniature painting series, letting art be imperfect, how to be friends with everyone you meet, holding people accountable for yourself and not performatively verbalizing your gratitude for others and so, so much more. It is a fabulous interview. And I'm so grateful that Jensine came on. As always, there are some updates about friendless as well as our sister show raised by the movies. But I will put all of that at the end of the episode. So do stick around for that. But that is then and this is now so let's not delay and for now, jump right into my interview with Jensine Emeline Trondson here on Friendless. so this week, I have a local Saskatoon, you know, artists, um, it's not that I hesitate to call you a friend. But that it's like, it's we're in this really funny spot where you know, we know each other through the community, but we never really had a chance to actually have a one on one conversation. And so I'm actually really excited about this. Jensine, is it Trondson?

Jensine Trondson: 2:02

Trondson, Yeah,

James Avramenko: 2:03

I just I should have asked you that before we started recording. But how are you today?

Jensine Trondson: 2:10

I'm doing okay. Yeah. How are you?

James Avramenko: 2:14

Hey, you know, trucking on it's, it's, it's only minus 10 today, so it feels like it's like, it's like the tropics,

Jensine Trondson: 2:23

basically summer.

James Avramenko: 2:28

So the way we've kind of crossed paths was through the theater work that, that you've done. I don't believe we've ever actually directly worked together. But I've seen a lot of your different kind of design works. And you seem to float through multiple kind of disciplines of theater in terms of I think I've seen you do lighting I think I've seen you do costume I think I've seen you do set. So So I guess where where I'm curious to sort of start with the with the with the interview is about what sort of led you down that path and what you got what got you into design work for theater?

Jensine Trondson: 3:09

Well, I did, I actually started doing theater as an actor as a kid. And, and I say that very lightly like it was community theater stuff, or the old Broadway dinner theater and stuff like that. It was not professional stuff by any means. But that's kind of where it started. And when I was going, either in high school, I did drama. Again, as an actor, I didn't really think much of the design side. And going into university, I was going to be a botanist. And then I took a drama class and went, you know, what, what am I doing here? I just had a thought of like, you know, what, I don't think I want to act the rest of my life. And I like doing other stuff and I know how to sell and I might as well give design stuff a try. And the multifaceted design stuff kind of just happened. Like there was never an intention to do a little bit of everything. But that's how I've always done stuff anyways, do a little bit of everything at like 60% you know,

James Avramenko: 4:06

I i think that you know, because there's obviously there's that like that that old saying of like the master of none, you know, the the jack of all trades, master of none thing. And, and I think that that was an idiom that held true in a time when you could specialize. And I don't think we can anymore, you know, especially I mean, I don't know if we've ever been able to specialize in Canadian arts right where it's like, it's already hard enough to survive as it is just being in the arts, let alone if you want to just be an actor or just whatever, right? Yes, exactly. Did you did you go to university for it? Did you study it?

Jensine Trondson: 4:43

I did. I went to the U of S i have a BFAH in theater design, with the university medal of the fine arts. If I can toot my little horn about that

James Avramenko: 4:53

awesome.

Jensine Trondson: 4:55

It was a piece of metal they gave me. That's it. You know,

James Avramenko: 5:00

I I was I was always of the mind of like, my old you know, as I was like, rolling up some fat joined my saying was always Ds are for degrees. So I can't claim to have ever gotten any, you know, what are they called like that that cum laude or somebody's come whatever the fuck it is right. But that's so cool. So is that through? Is that like academic achievement or is that through?

Jensine Trondson: 5:35

Yeah. I'm not really sure what the criteria was honestly, I have no idea. I was not really in a great mindset around convocation. So everything was kind of a blur. I walked on stage, I took my thing, and I went back to work. I don't know.

James Avramenko: 5:53

I mean, I didn't even go to mine. I didn't even attend mine. Because it was like you know, I'd actually gotten work outside of the city. And so I was like bye.

Jensine Trondson: 6:02

yeah, sit in a garbage bag for, essentially a garbage bag for however many hours. I purposefully graduated in November, so I wouldn't have to do this.

James Avramenko: 6:14

I, you know, it's funny, I tried doing that. Actually, I tried. I tried. I was in my last, you know, I had to take a fifth year because I had failed, or I hadn't failed. I had gotten so many ends on classes that I and, and so I had to make up credits and all that kind of stuff. And by the time I got to my fifth year, I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna crunch six classes into one semester, just so that I can be done and gone. I didn't I gratefully a friend of mine sat me down is like James, it's a stupidest thing you've ever said.

Jensine Trondson: 6:46

Oh, my gosh, I took five years just because I had to write I just felt like it. I didn't want to do it all in four. That's insane. You taking six classes in one term is insane.

James Avramenko: 6:54

Even five classes insane. Like the fact that they consider a five class a full work like a, what is it called, like a sort of a normalized workload is? That's to me, you know,

Jensine Trondson: 7:05

I totally agree.

James Avramenko: 7:08

so you're involved in all this in all this design work? And but actually, the thing that I really want to talk to you about is, you know, theater theater for me is in a funny spot, because it's like, I mean, it's like, it kind of doesn't exist right now. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like, Oh, yeah, flux theater, you know, like, and it's like, and it's also it's in a very volatile state, you know, you know, culturally speaking across not only in the city, but across the province and across the country. It's, it's going through such upheavals, so it's it's almost a tough subject to kind of touch on. So forgive me as I sort of dance ranted a little bit, but are you are you are you working on anything these days? Like, are you doing any kind of

Jensine Trondson: 7:55

I am mainly in in real theater. Yeah, I work for 25th Street theater now for the free and that's been awesome. And I'm costume designing. I don't really yeah, I'm not sure who it's actually produced. I'm costume designing. Maybe I shouldn't costume designing a show that's going to be at the refinery in April. So it's it's weird costume designing again. I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. Did I ever really know what I was doing? I don't know. Maybe? less. So.

James Avramenko: 8:28

I think you know, you always hear about that. There's always that the conversation around like imposter syndrome. And everybody always talks about feeling like imposter syndrome. And and there is this half of me that feels like, yes, it's real. And I get it. And I and I feel it. And I understand when people feel doubtful of it. There is this other side of me too, though, that it's just like, well, if this isn't making you fucking happy, then why are you doing it? You know, it's, it's like, it's like, it's sort of like, quit beating yourself up for liking doing something and also quit beating yourself up for, like, not being the best at it right out of the gate. You know,

Jensine Trondson: 9:05

and the gates Exactly. It's okay, not to know.

James Avramenko: 9:08

And what does that even mean? What's the best? What is the best theater? How the fuck could we ever know what the best theater is? It you, you put it on and it dies. You know? So it's like, you might be the best theatre person ever. And you'll never know that. So it's like, let out get off your back, you know?

Jensine Trondson: 9:25

Yeah.

James Avramenko: 9:26

So we're 25th How did you get involved with that? Because I am, you know, through my through my SPC work, which I I don't talk a lot about here, but um, but through SPC, we've been partnering with with 25th street for a couple projects. And it's really exciting. And I just like, the like the way that Anita Smith has started, like really spearheading new projects is just like, it's so exciting. And it's so fun.

Jensine Trondson: 9:54

Yeah, actually, it's funny how I got the job was it's kind of a funny story, actually. So I had worked for the fringe as a technician in 2019, and was supposed to be taking on a more leadership role in 2020. Of course, then the world exploded. So that didn't happen. But we're sitting here in at the end of 2020. I can't remember what month exactly it was, it must have been September or so. And I work at the liquor store as well. And I needed something else. So I got a nine to five job on a Monday, I started on Monday, Tuesday, I got a raise at this job. Wednesday, I had to call in sick because I was in so much distress because I just hated it. I just hated it. And I'm sitting at home thinking like, I need the money, but I can't I can't do this job. I can't do it. And I'm looking at my ceiling going, Oh, God, Brandon, my partner that passed away is like, Brandon, if you love me at all, give me a sign. Like, just help me out here, man. Within 12 hours, I got an email from Anita being like, Hey, you want a job? And I was like, oh my god. Yes, please. Oh, do I ever so yeah, so I quit that place. I was there for three days.

James Avramenko: 11:04

Oh, my God, I love that they gave you a raise to they were just like, we need you and you're like bye.

Jensine Trondson: 11:13

I felt bad for about it. I was like, man, how like, Who does that?

James Avramenko: 11:17

Hey, I mean, also, although, you know what, though? If If this company had money to give raises in a pandemic, I'm sure they're fine.

Jensine Trondson: 11:26

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, they, they've got it on lockdown. They're it just was not my type of work. And that's not to say anything bad about the company. They're fantastic. And they run a well oiled machine. I am just not as well oiled. So it was not the place for me. That's Oh,

James Avramenko: 11:42

you know what, though, that is something that I've struggled with, through like, basically, my entire adult life is this idea of like, sometimes I'll get, you know, like a quote unquote, like a normal person job, right. You know, I'll, I'll be a phone salesman, or I'll be a, you know, a dishwasher, whatever, whatever it might be, whatever, like normal, you know, non artistic based job. And, and I feel like, I'm losing my absolute mind. Like, I feel like it's just, it's just the, this is just the worst place for me to be and, and, and it's why I'm constantly, I'll just take any theater job that there is, you know, it's why I've sort of ran the gamut of like, Oh, yeah, I'll be a box office manager. Sure. I'll be an audience Services Manager. Sure. All, whatever the fuck as long as like, as long as my office is a theater, I will do it, you know?

Jensine Trondson: 12:31

Yeah, for sure.

James Avramenko: 12:33

Ijust like I, part of me wishes, I wasn't like that. Because like theater admin jobs suck so bad. You know, because you get it, you get it from all sides, right? Because when you're theater admin, you're, you're, you're shit on by your upper people, you know, you're never paid what you're worth. And then the people in the community think that you're like, the privileged view. And so you get shit under them, too, you know? And it's like, there's no winning. And it's like, I just like, I'm a part time pencil pusher. What do you want from me? Like, why haven't you solved all of our cultural problems that are baked in for the last century? That's a little side side spin. But but so what do you do exactly? To actually center back into? What what are you doing with the with the printer this year?

Jensine Trondson: 13:38

I'm, by technical definition, the executive assistant. So I am a need as number two, which is a big job, because Anita is so so phenomenal. That trying to like be adequate is really difficult. It's difficult, because I've never done a theater admin job, like, I've got stage management experience. So that helps you from an organizational standpoint, but I've never had to write a grant or ask people for money or ask people for quotes or, or, you know, I had to phone a lady the other day, and I who phones people anymore, I don't know. It's all the weird shit that that just sort of happens, that you don't really think about doing and, you know, we've been doing some marketing, which actually my first job when I was 16, or whatever, was as a social media person for a company and 10. So I'm like, drawing experience from 10 years ago, back to help me design this website. And I'm not even building it. Like we've got people doing that. But if there's changes, you know, I have to do that sort of stuff, share social media, all this stuff that Yeah, like I said, just sort of happens for a lot of people and you don't really think about having to do a, we don't realize the work that goes into it. I think that's the issue.

James Avramenko: 14:52

Well, it's that whole thing. I mean, and this is it's something that I wish was was spoken about more openly with In the the arts community, not just theater, but within the arts community, so that people outside could grasp it a little stronger is that when you, when you watch Good work, right, whether it's whether it's you know, good admin, which is a craft in itself, or whether it's good art, you know, like, whether it's a beautiful piece of painting, or a song or a theater, whatever it might be, when you witness Good work, it looks easy, because it's been done by somebody who's learned how to do the work. It's not easy, right? It's not easy to get up and act, it's not easy to write a great, you know, but, but, but it looks easy, because somebody put the work in and, and, and I wish that we were more attuned to that, and I don't, I don't, I don't encounter it very often that people give that kind of empathy, you know, and now that is definitely like, my own internalized like, depression and all my other, you know, like, my cynicism in my, you know, I read, I read Kambou when I was 18, and it ruined that part of it, but but I do feel like I don't encounter that type of empathy very much, especially nowadays, with, you know, the vitriol of Facebook comments, and Twitter and you know, dogpiling, and all these, like, you know, virtue signaling and things like that, right. And so, yeah, so I worry that we don't realize the work that goes into making sure this stuff can happen, you know?

Jensine Trondson: 16:36

Yeah. And even from, like, making sure this stuff can happen from a work perspective and a life perspective, too. I mean, I need a specifically as a mom of two young kids, and does X amount of other stuff on top of it. Like, I'm lucky to be a young single, no kids, no pets, I sit in my house, and I do nothing, right. I don't I look after myself, which is a full time job. Because I yeah. And I'm not very good at it. But that's, that's fine. That's something else. But you know, like, there's, there's this expectation that, Oh, well, you're so and so at this place, you must be so strong in your job and do all this other stuff. And then you go home, and you get to, you know, enjoy your life? No, maybe you work for four other feeder companies, and you're trying to juggle all of that plus your kids plus your partner, plus your six dogs and seven cats and 40. parakeets?

James Avramenko: 17:31

I don't know. Exactly, and it's all and it's all under paid. And it's all under represented, and it's all under under appreciated. Right. You know, and I think Yeah, you know, I think that is something that I'm trying really hard to do within my own sort of encounters with, with with other art theater artists, and, and especially like theater, you know, sort of perceived theater leaders and art leaders is is like, just to like, thank them, because I think that it's very easy to let those positions go on thanked because of our own internalized resentments of what we think they're doing versus you know, our career or whatever it might be, you know, and I think that it's really easy to forget how much someone like you needed does, you know, and how grateful I am for her being in the community and the work that she does, and, and, you know, because these positions aren't, you know, I think about like, when not, you know, my time, and I, you know, I won't go who won't go very deep into this at all, but my time working at the big theater in town, you know, those are positions that are built for four people each, but are being done by one person, you know, and so it's like, these are one person teams who are doing way too much work for, for what they're being enlisted to do, and then being and then being held accountable as if they're a team. Right. And so, two way direction thing, right of, of a failure, a failure of organization and then also a failure of community. Right.

Jensine Trondson: 19:04

Yes.

James Avramenko: 19:06

I'm not trying to throw anybody under any buses here or anything like that.

Jensine Trondson: 19:12

no, you're absolutely right. But

James Avramenko: 19:15

I just worry that the conversations that are being had are swinging sometimes in the wrong directions, because I worry that they blame the wrong people. You know, I'm also worried we're looking for blame, right? It's like sometimes it's not, sometimes it's not a person to blame. Sometimes it's, you know, a system that needs refurbishing that isn't one person's burden to bear right another element of your art that I love and I'm just like I'm fascinated by and I want to hear all about you post these amazing little like, like micro records like these like records and and they're so freakin cool. And I just want to like I I don't know. You know, it's one of those like, tell me everything like I don't know what but like what what sort of inspired you to do that? Let's start there What inspired you

Jensine Trondson: 20:10

sure. Actually the first one I did, I have still never finished it sat Green Day American Idiot and I started doing it like, oh god probably 10 years ago. two inch by two inch whatever. And I just did it for fun I did it because I liked that album and whatever but but the inspiration I guess comes from my mom straight up. My mom is the biggest rock and roller you could ever meet. She's something else entirely that woman god I love her. When I was a little kid she would. Sunday mornings like if I had a sleep over Saturday night to good luck with us sleeping in Sunday morning. It wasn't a thing mom was up vacuuming using the vacuum as a microphone with our five CD mixer ACDC Back in Black April wine gold collection and Aerosmith gold collection. So two discs each just just cranked in our apartment. Oh my god. So I get like that sort of rock and roll I just want to Music is my is my thing with my mom specifically, right? I just love it. So when I was when quarantine started and all that I wanted something that I could do and I don't care for drawing I don't care for now I probably should I just don't like it. And I don't care for big paintings, I don't have the patience to spend on big paintings takes too long to dry office and

James Avramenko: 21:37

all the materials

Jensine Trondson: 21:38

Exactly. So I figured you know what little tiny ones that's about as many brain cells as I've got to put into this. So we'll start there. And it just like I don't know, I did it for fun. It started for fun. Because I have an insert. I have a huge record collection. I picked one that I thought would be easy. And I liked it and went off from there. And my mom is really good at making sure I have work all the time apartment, she should listen to music at home, she lives in red area. And I'll get a text from her have a picture of her TV screen because on the album that's playing on the through the TV, do this one do this one next. So it's commission list this person, this person and the my mom was like 40 lines long.

James Avramenko: 22:20

She's you know, I was wondering actually about that. Because sometimes, like there's been a few that are pretty deep cuts. And they're like a little like, Oh shit, I haven't thought about that one in a long time. Like,

Jensine Trondson: 22:31

those are usually requests of other people, which is kind of fun. Actually. It's fun doing albums that I have never heard of. Because then it forces me to listen to them. Well, it doesn't force me to but I like to listen to the album that I'm painting while I'm working on it. So it's fun. Like there was a Lilly Kershaw one from a few months ago and I'd never even heard of Lilly Kershaw before and and so I posted the image of it, and she commented back and so cool, all the cool stuff that comes from it.

James Avramenko: 23:01

Well, and it's, it's such a unique it's such a unique take, right? Because it's one thing to just reproduce it right. It's one thing just to paint it, but it's a whole other thing. to to to miniaturize it, right. And that's actually what gives it it's, for me as an outsider, it's what gives us it's like, like, cachet is the wrong word. But it's like, it's the thing that makes it so unique and interesting of like, how do you condense it? You know, and what do you do have to lose some of the detail but in doing that, you you get new details through it and how Yeah, to it, right.

Jensine Trondson: 23:37

It's good practice now to actually I think working small, and then working your way back up. Like the most recent ones have been five inch, which are huge. For me. That's like, that's a lot of space. A lot more brain cells. I don't know, man. And thinking about Yeah, what's important and what isn't important and using the theater design mindset of going, Okay, I can look at this 12 inches from my face and go, Okay, well, that looks like shit. But then you put it on a wall and you walk five feet away, and you go, oh, it actually doesn't look that bad. That's kind of the stage design mindset that comes through the minute. You don't have to make things perfect. Nothing has to be perfect. Who cares? Okay, yeah, no,

James Avramenko: 24:16

Exactly. You're so spot on. And that's the th ng that I'm constantly like, rying to just scream to the mo ntains, right? It's like, just d the dumb thing. Like absolu ely perfect. There are you kn w, like, tell like, if you to d me your favorite piece of art ever if it was like, what's your favorite song? I bet you co ld find a couple lines in it tha suck you know? Absolu ely.

Jensine Trondson: 24:43

Oh 100%

James Avramenko: 24:45

I'm sure there's some you know, a couple of brushstrokes in the Mona Lisa better wrong or whatever the fuck right? Yeah, she doesn't even have somebody fucked it up. They melted her eyebrows off. You know, like,

Jensine Trondson: 24:56

yeah, that's just it. Shit happens man. And you have to always go off of like, in five years, am I going to care about this? Probably not. So it's good enough knowing when to say that's good enough. That's a huge thing for everything for theater for these paintings. Being able to look at it and go, yes, I could continue to work on this. Oh, my God, is it not worth it? Yes, it's, it's done like, I can't, nothing I can do. It'll, we'll fix it, because I'll just do something and then screw something else up, right? It's not going to, I'm spinning my wheels in the mud or whatever

James Avramenko: 25:36

You're spot o . It's that there is I mean, yo know, you're talking ab ut the artistic process. part of the process is letting it go, right. Like, in part, you' e not, you're not you're not fi ishing things. If you're not gi ing it to somebody else. Like, that's the whole, you know, or me, that's the objective of art is like, it's like, it's a l it's all fine and good to do t. But you have to give it to omeone else. That's how you fin sh the cycle, right? And 100%. nd you know, and just, the hope s that you don't give it to s mebody mean, I've realized that I started this show with the core question of Have I been a good friend? You know, and and if I'm going to answer that question, what I need to figure out first is what does it mean to be a friend? And I think that that is not necessarily a one shot answer. And so I'm I'm endlessly fascinated by how guests internalize that. And so I wonder, how do you define friendship?

Jensine Trondson: 27:27

Friendship, to me is a positive relationship with another person plain and simple. I, I won't say I've gotten in trouble for that before. But I feel like that's not a shared reality for a lot of people because like my coworkers, even at my my weekend, part time job, those are my friends. They are my co workers. Yes. But they're also they're my friends. I don't think friendship needs to be what I take a bullet for you or not, that's a different level of friendship. But I think friendship in general is, I don't know, it's just a general positive, positive reaction to each other. And it doesn't even need to be positive all the time. I mean, I used to have a friend that would she would always make fun of me because I when I was starting a story, I'd go Oh, my friend James and I bah, bah, bah. And she'd be like, well, I would assume that they're your friends, because you're doing that with them. And I'm like, Well, I know, I just, I just everyone is my friend. And so I'm always Oh, my friend, this person and I would for lunch with my friend Tegan and I went for coffee with my friend this and that. And people are like, well, the other your friends, you're doing stuff with them? Like, I don't know, ever. Everyone's my friend. I just

James Avramenko: 28:36

I love that. And I think you know, you know, I was having a bit of a I don't know what the right word for it is. But I was having a bit of Well, okay, let me caveat it differently. My, my therapist was working with me to genuinely hold certain people accountable within my own mind. Because I mean, there's, there's, there's one thing to like sort of publicly put people in their place, quote, unquote, and and sort of go through this rigmarole role of shaming them and, but then there's a whole other process of just holding them accountable for yourself. And, and one of the one of the things that I've kind of taken through that process is this idea of how do I want people in my life to, to connect to me, and I and I'm, and the reason I'm bringing this up is is exactly what you're saying about like, if I have a good connection to you, I consider you my friend. I'm right there with you. That's absolutely i think that actually is like something that I'm now having problems with, because I have that reaction where I'm like, yeah, of course we're friends. We had that one really fun time. 10 years ago.

Jensine Trondson: 29:45

I love that o e time five years ago, of cour e we're friends

James Avramenko: 29:48

but then but t en there are people in the worl who are like, Of course I'm not your fucking friend. I just ork with you. You know, lik there's there's there's th se like, shithead like Forgiv me like You know, and so it's like I'm walking that that tig trope of wanting to like everybo y wanted to be friends, but then not being totally sure all the time of if they want to. R ght. And that's that push and pu

Jensine Trondson: 30:15

I found that I, I was doing Myers Briggs thing for work a few weeks ago and, and being an empath, I think that's just something that happens naturally. But I also based on the Myers Briggs thing, I think, come to it's come to my awareness that I'm a bit of an overshare overshare, because I want people to be able to go I don't know, however many years down the road, oh, I'm experiencing something, I know that this person had experienced it, maybe I can ask them for help. Yes, I want people to be able to, to know me not so that I they can know who I am. And they know, my mama. But because then we have if they ever need a hand, they have someone to talk to if they have you know, I'm not, I get it.

James Avramenko: 30:58

That's such a wonderful, I love that. And I and I, I feel like you're giving voice to something that I've sort of inadvertently tried to do. But, and I kind of wish more people would do was this idea of like, it's almost leading by example. Right? It's almost like instead of talking about things that sometimes don't have the words, right, like, sometimes you've had some degree of a traumatic experience, no matter what it may be, and you don't know how to process it. But then you hear somebody say, you know, they tell a story about their experience in something similar, and that, you know, gives them the permission and the safety to to process it for themselves. Right. Absolutely. I love that. And I would I yeah, like I said, I wish more people would do it. But then there is that thing of like, you know, some people don't, you know, it's not that they don't care. But it's like, some people don't want to have to handle it, right. And that's the

Jensine Trondson: 31:53

absolute. And that's fine, too.

James Avramenko: 31:55

Oh, totally,

Jensine Trondson: 31:56

those people are usually really good at telling you. When they don't want nothing to do with that, which is good, that's great. You want me to shut the fuck up, you just gotta tell me, I'll do it.

James Avramenko: 32:12

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Jensine Trondson: 32:39

So during the Myers Briggs thing that actually that I mentioned, that we were doing for for work, they were talking about communication styles between different Myers Briggs types. And she sent us with some homework, and I didn't do my homework. So I'm gonna make you do the homework for me, kind of

James Avramenko: 32:56

I love it, I love it,

Jensine Trondson: 32:57

I want you to tell me what quality of your own that you admire in yourself?

James Avramenko: 33:08

Oh, very goo question. Um, I really app eciate and admire that when I s t my mind to a project, I whe I set my mind to a project, and I set a structure around tha project, it's very hard for me o not finish it. It actually is hen I'm working within a str cture. And this goes into my lik , you know, executive brain fun tions and those kinds of thi gs. But when I'm working wit in a structure, it's act ally harder for me to not fin sh than it is to finish, you kno , Now, again, this comes bac to the whole thing about lik , it may not be good, you kno , but like, you know, like I you know, I wrote two books last yea , you know what I mean? And it' like, yeah, they're there, the 're unpublishable, and they nee a lot of work, but like, I did it, and that's fucking awe ome. You know? Absolutely. So eah, so I think my, I guess, I g ess the the, the reductive ter is like my like creative ten city, I guess. Would you wan to call it that? Right? Yea ,

Jensine Trondson: 34:21

absolutely.

James Avramenko: 34:22

Um, and I got a great laugh.

Jensine Trondson: 34:28

Yes, absolutely. 100%

James Avramenko: 34:32

but, but that's more of a that's more of a physiological thing. I don't think, like I actually was bor with

Jensine Trondson: 34:38

So now the homework for everyone listening is to comment or whatever, on things that you admire about James. I love that's your homework. Yeah. Listening. shower me with Yes. Shower him. Tell him all the things that you admire about him. He deserves it.

James Avramenko: 34:56

Oh is that is that is that the only question or is there more is there more to the homework

Jensine Trondson: 35:03

nope that's it that's it just recognizing that you're awesome and you know that it's okay to give yourself praise every once in a while you don't have to sit there and beat yourself up and oh i didn't do this i didn't do that well yeah but you also did these 10 other things how to worry about it

James Avramenko: 35:20

man that is that is such a you know i was talking i was i was talking on an earlier episode about i've been trying to do like i forget the right term for it because it's purely on my own terms but it's like you know when you sort of like oh affirmations i've been trying to do like i've been trying to like in the morning talk to myself a little bit in the mirror and be you know it'd be sort of like you're worth it's like it's hard it's hard because it's like it's like it's not that i don't believe the informations themselves but i feel goofy right you know yeah you're really fucking weird being like go get him tiger

Jensine Trondson: 36:06

i wish we had video on i wish they could see so you're you're right though you're totally right having that moment especially eye to eye with yourself in the mirror oh i don't think i could do that i do my yoga i try and pick they always say set an intention most of the time i sing that song that's on tic tac the i am healthy i am wealthy bitch and i'm like yeah yeah yeah that's enough for me let's do my day you know i have to think about it

James Avramenko: 36:37

god you know and that's the thing i mean that really is what it comes down to it's it's like it's one thing entirely to to internalize it and try and let it bleed into your life and then there's a whole other thing to like make it really intentional right

Jensine Trondson: 36:53

yes and actually that that's something we were talking about this earlier about an admin people that we don't you know we appreciate them but we whatever that's something i was gonna say back then too is like it's one thing to internalize it to be like oh yes i appreciate anita but when this meeting is done i'm going to send her an email and say hey look actually actually verbalizing that to people some people don't care like we said about other stuff they don't some people don't they don't need that verbal affirmation but i think if you admire someone again or think what they're doing is awesome telling them that holy shit you have no idea how good that makes people feel yep yep oh it's such a little thing it's a little thing to just say say out loud i appreciate you

James Avramenko: 37:38

yep exactly exactly well and that's and that's the thing and i mean honestly that is actually a root of this show is that like it it and i and i kind of pivot i kind of fall on both sides of it where it's like there is this part of me that's like uh like isn't enough you know like like it's a start though it's a start though and i think it's important to give likes and i have to be cognizant of it because it feels cheap and it feels kind of dumb but like honestly just liking a post is a lot for it for some you know and and especially when you think about how many of your friends you just scroll by you know and yeah and it's like so like while at the end of the day if you want to do more i don't think alike is enough but it's a it's a start and then on top of that then you need to vocalize to i'm right there with you you know like you have we have to vocally appreciate each other because i think we're we're far too conditioned to only vocalize the bad stuff and only vocalize that the diligent watchdog we're gonna get you stuff and not like wow you're doing such an incredible job and i'm so appreciative that you're a part of this you know so now that actually bleeds into my last question and this is something that again like i continue to wrestle with with you know where we're in quarantine we don't know when it's you know the rollout of the vaccines has been atrocious yeah no idea what's coming and and and so it looks like for the time being friendships are going to remain predominantly digital and unless you're a real dick you know but so what are some what do you think are some actionable suggestions that people can do to remain a good friend in 2021 and then moving forward

Jensine Trondson: 39:36

for me and and the people i am really close to because i can't say my friends because i got everyone's for me and the people that i am in direct yeah that i that i normally would be seeing often something for us has been just straight up patients

James Avramenko: 39:54

yeah

Jensine Trondson: 39:56

i have a close girlfriend that yeah We've been friends for years. And I betcha we plan to do something together, whether it's over the internet, whatever, probably once a week, and I, and I bet you, it never happens, like, we are so bad for, you know, taking the time for ourselves. And I and I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, we have acts, we have created a relationship with each other, where we understand each other's mental capacities, if you will, and and social batteries. And we can both without fear, say, two hours in advance be like, Look, dude, I, I love you. I can't do this.

James Avramenko: 40:38

I got to stare at the wall for a while.

Jensine Trondson: 40:39

Yeah, I just need to not know. And it's fine. Having that patience, that pre pre emptive patience with each other. None of us are expecting to see each other and none of us are expecting, you know, a phone call or whatever. And that goes beyond friends to I think that's a huge thing families need to understand too. That like, I it's not that I don't want to see you. That's it's the opposite. It's just, you know, kind of the way things are but something that my friends and I, the people I'm very close to and I have worked on since actually since the middle of 2019 we've been working on now this is I think this is that high school boy sort of thing all the boys. You know, one of the boys. We I always say I love you. Always. And it's that verbalizing, right? And I love you is not doesn't have to be a romantic weird thing. It doesn't have to be it's not I love them, I would do. I love all my friends. That's for that. But saying I love you to the people that you wouldn't normally say I love you too. I think is a is a big, that's an actionable thing. start telling people how you feel about them. In a good way. Yeah, in a bad way too. If it needs to be said, Absolutely set your boundaries and do what you need to do. But I'm talking if there's someone you love, whether it's your friend or family or whatever, tell them. Yeah, don't assume that they just know. Yes.

James Avramenko: 42:10

Tell them and that is a that is a such a you know, I it's funny because it reminds me of a an anecdotal story of my own experience that has actually changed me to do that. Because I, when I was first starting to date, jenica she introduced me to her like group of friends from Winnipeg, and they're like, tight, they're like, you know, they've all been friends for decades. And, and after, like, my second time hanging out with them, one of them was just like, James, I love you. And, and I like, I was like, Oh, God, thank you, you know, I didn't because because because at that time, I only said I love you to like my family. And then like, the person I was dating, you know, and, and it and I like actively use that moment to really like, be like, What the fuck, but I do love this person. I don't i'd feel comfortable saying I love you. And so I have and I'm right with you. I think everybody should just always say I love you. If you love someone tell them you know, it's not many more tears of love than just like romantic physical there are there are so you know, you can feel genuine, intimate love for someone and not want to sleep with them. You know? Yes. You know,

Jensine Trondson: 43:31

and you never know, right? Like, I mean, we some of us know this a little too well, you never you never know when the last time you're going to get to say it. It's exactly how you just got to do it. There's nothing like, of course everyone's going to have regrets at the end of the day. That's just how humans are. But I can almost promise you're not going to regret not saying something hateful to someone you're going to regret not telling them you love them. Right? That's like always forget it.

James Avramenko: 43:55

Exactly.

Jensine Trondson: 43:56

And that it's the easiest thing to do. It is literally three words, it is so easy, right? And we do it sometimes to bug each other. We'll do it right before we hang up. So it'll be I love you. They don't get to respond.

James Avramenko: 44:11

It really, it's actually it's the On the flip side, it's the thing that I'm really grateful for, to my, to my like, my sort of my group of guy friends from from back in the day is all of them are really comfortable saying it. And it's really nice to be able to say I love you to another, you know, like, you know, not to be like overly heteronormative but it's like you know, I'm a straight white guy. So sorry. It's the only experience I can speak to you know, but like it's really nice when straight guys say I love you to each other, you know, and I wish more of them did it because it's just, it's just lovely to hear my big galoot. I love you and it's just like I love it, man. So nice, you know, but uh man Jensine you know, this is it always ge s to this part of the episode o the interview and I and I fe l so bad because I have to pu l up your Facebook now and we ha e to kind of wrap it up. Bu But before we do well, first o all actually is there. Why don t we get this out of the wa ? Is there anything you'd li e to sort of plug? Is there a y Is there anywhere you'd like listeners to find you? D you want to share anything? h, I mean, list stuff off. And I will add it all to the to the show notes and all that ki d of s

Jensine Trondson: 45:30

Cool. Well, yeah, I guess if you want to see those paintings really talking about you can find them on Instagram and Instagram only because I'm not great with social media. At Jensine Emeli e, Emeline is my middle na e. That's what I usually go wi h. So yeah, otherwise, come ch ck out the fringe this su mer. Yeah, that'd be awesome. An the Saskatchewan design fe tival that's coming up and th secret show that's at the re inery that I'm just not it's it s called the art of war. It ll be at the refinery. And in Ap il, hopefully, I mean, we'll se what happens with re trictions by the end of the mo th this month. But just stay en aged. Yeah, have fun, check ou theater when you can even if it s digital,

James Avramenko: 46:15

you know, I I do want to say like I'm I'm like, thank you so much for coming on the show. And thank you for for you know, you know, I just call it sin bravely. Right, you know, thanks for sitting brave, like I am, you know, you know, like I said at the very top, like, you know, we were obviously, you know, not great friends, we're not close friends, but like, I'm so appreciative that you're in this community. And, you know, I'm you know, jenica and I are both very much like outsiders to the community. And we're not we're not we're still trying to figure out some inroads to certain elements and, and it's always just so nice to, to meet somebody in the community who's just so vibrant and amazing. And it's just like, I think the work that you do is so amazing. And I just like every time I see you post something, it's it's it's another like, it's just, I don't know, the right word for it is it's just I think you're so immensely talented, and I'm so impressed by it, you know, so, so keep doing you and thank you.

Jensine Trondson: 47:14

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I gotta admit, I was a little nervous, but this was really fun. This was a lot of fun. So thank you so much.

James Avramenko: 47:23

Good. Well, we're about to do something not so fun. Although I mean, I would say like oh, this is a big deal but really it's it's Facebook and Facebook fucking blow but we have one last thing we got to do. Yes, seen we are we are no longer Facebook friends.

Jensine Trondson: 47:43

Okay, still real life friends. You know, what really matters?

James Avramenko: 47:48

You know, I'm kind of like I'm kind of looking forward to the to the day when I finally have an interview where I'm like, and we're not real friends.

Jensine Trondson: 47:57

And we're no longer just friends period, then hang up the call leave them be they don't get to respond. Wait, no, no, no, you got to do where we are no longer friends. I love you.

James Avramenko: 48:40

That is it. Thanks again to Jensine for c ming on the show. It was so l vely to finally have a chance t actually get to know her a l ttle bit better. If you like t e show, please do let your f iends know. Share the links t ll anyone you think would like f iendless about the show. Every m ntion every share, it helps me o t so so much. Also, if you h ve the means to support f nancially, the Patreon is now l ve. starting at just $5 a m nth, you can get exclusive a cess to all kinds of fun s uff, uncut, ad free episodes, b and new writing access to a D scord server we'll be we'll be d ing all kinds of really fun e ents coming soon. All that i fo is in the show notes. If y u have the means please do t ink about supporting us. If y u want to follow Jensen's i structions and shower me with s me positivity you can find me o all social medias at f iendless pod or on average m ngo. You can also email me f om this pod@gmail.com being k nd doesn't cost a thing. So w o are you going to reach out t this week? That's it for me. S I won't take up any more of y ur time. Be sure to check out r ised by the movies we are a most through the Disney R naissance and I will tell you I am ready for something new. O her than that, I'll just say I l ve you and I hope you take c re of yourself and everyone a ound you and I will see you n xt time. Whenever That may be b t not worry, because that is t en and this is now. So for n w, remember someone loves you a d that's someone who's been f reign safety