Jane Sanden

James Avramenko: 0:01

Friendless is a proud member of the Saskatchewan Podcast Network, which is sponsored in part by Conexus credit union and direct West. My sweeties welcome back to a brand new episode of Friendless with me, your old pal and host, James Avramenko. As always, I am on a quest to have no friends left on Facebook. And somehow, that's going to help me answer the question of what it means to be a good friend. This week to help me get a little closer to that answer is an old friend of mine, fellow UVic alum and charcuterie extraordinare Jane Sanden. We discussed the perfect charcuterie board, Rocky Horror Picture Show, reintroducing ourselves after being deceived by beards, learning to appreciate flaky friends, and so much more. Jane is a dear friend from back in the day and I loved getting a chance to catch up with her again and I think you are going to love this episode. As usual, I have stuck a few updates on the show at the end of the episode. So be sure to stick around for that to find out some fun ways you can support Friendless, but that is then and this is now. So for now, let's jump into my interview with Jane Sanden here on Friendless. How are you? It's been literally years.

Jane Sanden: 1:39

It's great to see you Jane. Right. I'm doing fine. I mean, it's still a pandemic. And I've been in Calgary for seven, six or seven months. yeah, my dad had like neurosurgery twice in the fall. So I came back. I was thinking of coming back for like, three weeks, and I brought like one pair of pants home. But then I stayed for a million months. So yeah, here we are.

James Avramenko: 2:10

Wow, how is your dad? Is he doing okay?

Jane Sanden: 2:14

Yeah, he's all right. He's had like a brain tumor that he's got taken out three times. The first one was in 2007. When we were at UVic. So yeah.

James Avramenko: 2:29

Wow. Do you want it like, I don't mean to, I don't want to, like poke deeper into that if you don't want to.

Jane Sanden: 2:36

Oh ask away.

James Avramenko: 2:38

I'm just that I mean, like, I'm just sort of in awe that he that he's like, had, been fighting this for so long. Like, is it, Is it like, leaving, like is being removed and coming back? Or is it like a reoccurring like what what's happening there?

Jane Sanden: 2:55

Yeah. So it's not a cancerous tumor. He started losing his hearing, like, maybe 15 years ago. And he discovered it was it's called an acoustic neuroma. It's a brain tumor around your acoustic and facial nerve.

James Avramenko: 3:09

Wow.

Jane Sanden: 3:10

So they cut it out. But like, they can't really cut it all out without doing a lot of brain damage. So it's like kind of a surgery he has to have every five ish years.

James Avramenko: 3:24

Unreal.

Jane Sanden: 3:26

Yeah. And this time, um, he got a brain infection after and he got an MRI. He got an MRI that he wasn't supposed to have. It was scheduled for months and months ago, it wasn't like a post op thing. And they discovered like a mass in his brain. And they're like, Oh, we don't know what this is we have to do emergency surgery. And it turned out it was an infection that had he not just happened to have this MRI randomly, they wouldn't have caught it and he would have died. So it's so lucky. And the craziest thing is, now there's like a halo around his brain tumor of white blood cells. And the doctor thinks that maybe like, that will stop the brain tumor from growing. And They said that they've been trapped. They there's theories about using disease to treat brain tumors, but it's too dangerous to do research.

James Avramenko: 4:33

Of Course. Yeah.

Jane Sanden: 4:35

Mm hmm. So that's interesting. And my dad's cousin has liver cancer. And she's she gets her liver flushed with like, tuberculosis. So

James Avramenko: 4:51

Wow. So she literally like like, how does that even work? Wow. Well, this is this is not where I thought the opening of this conversation was gonna go. But so okay. I'm sorry. Explain to me how someone is flushed with tuberculosis.

Jane Sanden: 5:10

I have no idea.

James Avramenko: 5:13

That's, it sounds like it's like one of those like, it sounds like a title to like a bodice Ripper like flushed with tuberculosis. Wow. But she's doing okay. She likes it. She's She's liking that treatment.

Jane Sanden: 5:30

I mean, I don't really know the details of it. I think my dad was like, Yeah, that makes no sense until his doctor told him this thing about his tumor. So

James Avramenko: 5:42

I guess is that is that is the theory behind it the idea of like, like building up immunities kind of thing. And then your body remembers how to fight it away after? Or is it like?

Jane Sanden: 5:52

Yeah, I don't know if it kind of like rushes white blood cells to that spot? consistently? Yeah, I'm not sure about this. But well,

James Avramenko: 6:02

That's fascinating. You know, it's funny, because like, I mean, I've never met your dad, but I, I have the most vivid image of him in my head because of Facebook. Because you will every couple years, you'll share a photo of how you look exactly like. And it's a photo of him from like, it's got to be like the 70s. And, and it's funny. And he also as a as a young man looks just like Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance. And so there's like,

Jane Sanden: 6:30

I never knew that.

James Avramenko: 6:33

But, but it's a it's an amazing comparison shot of the two of you, right? And I love any time it bubbles up you know, but Jane let's, let's let's talk about you,

Jane Sanden: 6:45

Yes let's

James Avramenko: 6:50

So, you know, I, I often start these interviews with like, talking about sort of how we met, but you fall into the category of guests that it often becomes a bit of like a haze, because of theatre school. And you know, in theater, you're sort of like, I know, a lot of times in theater in general, it's like you sort of already know who the person is before you may or may not meet them. And there's often like, and then a lot of times you have to pretend you've known them, and all those kinds of things. Right, you know, but I'm curious if, if you remember, I guess my preamble is indicating that I have no memory of it. I just, you're one of those people who like one day I wasn't friends with and the next day I was and I don't know what that day was. But I'm curious if you remember us meeting at all.

Jane Sanden: 7:38

Okay, I don't know if this is a false memory or not. But like on, I guess you're you came to UVic a year after me?

James Avramenko: 7:47

Yes.

Jane Sanden: 7:48

And on the first day at UVic. We have this big everyone meet each other in a circle thing.

James Avramenko: 7:54

Yep.

Jane Sanden: 7:54

And I was with Kate and I think she was like, that guy is I'm gonna date him. From across the room.

James Avramenko: 8:04

It definitely she, she you know, and I don't want to I don't want to sound like it was predatory. But she definitely, like, set her sights on me. And I didn't know what to do. I was terrified. I'd never lived on my own before I'd never lived away from home. I had just I'd literally like that week turned 18. So I was like still such a baby and was just like, terrified of everything, you know? Yeah, I remember her. I remember. It's funny. I don't remember what she said exactly.

Jane Sanden: 8:35

Yeah, and Kate and I were like, besties at that But I remember after that session, that big meeting broke and her just like be b-lining t me and me just being like, Oh fuck, what do I do time, so I'm sure that was the first time. But do you know the function of Facebook of see friendship?

James Avramenko: 9:03

Yes.

Jane Sanden: 9:05

Okay, so I was looking at yours and mine earlier today to just see what's up. And I wrote on your wall, like, about the first time that I thought I saw you?

James Avramenko: 9:19

Really?

Jane Sanden: 9:20

Yeah. Which was I said at the Rocky Horror Picture Show thing they used to do at UVic where I think you must have been dressed in drag.

James Avramenko: 9:31

Big time. Yeah, yeah. Cuz that first year, that first year, Jesse Fleming, like, forced us to go all out for that. And, and he was my, like, sort of first friend in university, because we had funnily enough met at that same big department meeting. We had sat beside each other and we neither of us knew anybody, you know each other or or anyone and so we just got talking. We found that we We're in the same, like, first year acting class together and and just sort of buddied up, you know, and, and then, yeah, you know, and school starts in September. So like the first big event or the big social thing was Rocky Horror in October. And, and he Yeah, he made us like, buy new dresses, new, you know, from Value Village and like, he did our makeup and we got super decked out. It's a blast. Yeah, I loved it. It was super fun. I wish I had the skills and the ability to do it more often. Because it's it's so fun.

Jane Sanden: 10:38

I know. I went to it every year. So I guess those are my first two memories. And since I'm in my parents house, I've been going through some of my old stuff. And Aislinn made me this book of haikus and got people to write me haikus. This would have been your first year and I have a haiku that you wrote me.

James Avramenko: 11:00

Oh my god. I want to hear it. Yeah.

Jane Sanden: 11:04

Okay. Jane has flowing hair. She makes me feel like sunbeams. I live the OC. signed by Jane or sorry signed by James in brackets. Kate's bf

James Avramenko: 11:19

I wasn't even last name basis at the time. I was like, just in case you didn't know I was that weird kid in the corner.

Jane Sanden: 11:29

I live The OC

James Avramenko: 11:30

I live the OC. Now, were you a part of were we doing? Was it the OC viewing that we were doing because I remember like was the OC still going on? And what that would have been 2005. Because I remember that. Like there was a group of like second years who were doing viewing parties of some show. And I think it was the OC but I can't. For the life of me remember.

Jane Sanden: 11:56

I was not part of that. I wasn't a big OC person. But I remember when Sam and I are living together, I came home one day, and he was crying like I've never seen anyone cry before, like, in consolable. And I walked in. I was like, Oh, my God, Sam, what happened? Is everything okay? And he's like, Marissa died.

James Avramenko: 12:22

I knew it. I knew I was at the moment. No, stay. So, so coming back to like, you know, so we met in Victoria. And then when I moved to Vancouver, I know you were already there, you had been pretty set up there. In terms of like, the, you know, the the group of people who had kind of, you know, migrated over, right. And actually, one of the things and maybe we'll talk about this later, actually, I remember when I went to barkerville. And I came back for like a super whirlwind weekend. And it's funny, because this actually, actually now that I think about it. This is this is a funny story. This was like, you know, I had moved to barkerville for the summer right out of school. And I don't think I'd seen you since you graduated the year before. And and I came back for a weekend. And you were living with Katie Takefman at the time, who was a alum of the show she was on earlier a couple years ago. And, and, and we went out for some drinks. And then I crashed on you guys's pullout coach, and in the morning, you came down, and I was waking up and you were so sweet. You came down the stairs, and you went? Hi, I'm Jane. Nice to meet you.

Jane Sanden: 13:44

And James, you, K first in my defense had the biggest beard I've ever seen. And I have no idea. You were back in Vancouver. And I said, Hi, I'm Jane. And I maybe even extended my hand. And then you started laughing uncomfortably and I'm like, Oh, fuck, it's James. Oh my god. And I think you wren't sure if I was joking,

James Avramenko: 14:12

yes.

Jane Sanden: 14:15

I remember that. So clearly.

James Avramenko: 14:17

I do love that. It's one of my all time favorite friend moments. Hi, I'm Jane. And it's like, ah, is this a bit? But, but no, that was that was a that was such a great weekend. And I'm so grateful to both of you for putting me up and putting up with me.

Jane Sanden: 14:40

one thing was like, our policy was kind of like, people crashed on our couch all the time. So there's often people you don't know who are there. It wasn't unusual, anyway.

James Avramenko: 14:54

But but so you were in Vancouver for a couple years. And this is the way I'm driving to this. And I'd like to actually hear you. I'd like to Stop babbling and telling you where you've been in your life. But, but so you know, when we were hanging out in Vancouver, when I left you, I had it in my head that you had gone to Toronto, but now you've ended up in Calgary. So I'd love to sort of hear the journey that took you around and why I'm so wrong about where I thought you were.

Jane Sanden: 15:27

So, I mean, I took a year between you Vic and Vancouver and lived in Calgary. And then I moved. I lived in Vancouver for four or five years. And then there was this mass exodus out of Vancouver. And it was so depressing. Like, I used to have a Christmas party. And from one year to the next, there was like 15 people that had been at my Christmas party the year before that had moved away.

James Avramenko: 15:58

Yeah.

Jane Sanden: 16:00

So I don't know, I was I was teaching public speaking to kids the entire time that I was there, and I was trying to do theater. And I felt like I was teaching more and more and doing theater, less and less than the theater thing. It just wasn't working out the way that I'm sure many of us felt that it would. So I decided to go back to school to become a teacher. So I moved to Kingston, Ontario, and got an education degree there. And my intention was always to go back to Vancouver, but when I graduated, it just like didn't feel quite right. I felt like I was just going to go back into the way that Vancouver is like it's not that I'm lazy, but I like to have like chill hangs all the time. And I feel like the energy of Vancouver just like it's not. It's conducive to me not doing anything with my life. That's how I felt.

James Avramenko: 17:10

Yeah, I'm I am right there with you. I've never really, I've never really wrapped my head around going back because every time I think about it, I'm like, Oh, no, that'll that'll ruin my life.

Jane Sanden: 17:23

Yeah, I mean, I still think about it every day. But I just, I needed somewhere new to go, I think. And I saw a bunch of like friends that I have that. It's just like they went to Toronto and they had this hustle in their lives and they had dreams and they were just doing it. And I really felt like I needed that. I don't know if it's like an aggressive energy of Toronto, but it's like a some sort of motivation.

James Avramenko: 17:56

It's the only city in Canada that has hustle. Like for my money it's the only city that has a hustle, you know?

Jane Sanden: 18:03

Totally. So I moved there like and I've lived there for five years, and I just am in Calgary just because of the pandemic because of my parents, but I'm still like have a job in Toronto. I'm still paying rent there. And um yeah.

James Avramenko: 18:22

And and you have done these really cool, like charcuterie boards in in Calgary. Do you want to do want to talk about those at all? Like, are they still ongoing? Or is that more of like an event thing?

Jane Sanden: 18:34

Sure, yeah. Um, so in October, when I was in Calgary, I made my uncle who is impossible to give anything to a charcuterie report. And he loved it. And my parents and I were like, holy shit, this is a huge hit. Maybe I should start doing this. And my dad is like our carpenter. So he made that board. And of course, my dad needs something to do because he's recovering from his brain tumor, and we're all locked up in pandemic. So, um, I put a little picture of the charcuterie board in our neighborhood printed newsletter, saying I was making them for Christmas. And my dad makes the boards and I assemble the food. And since in the last three months, I've sold like almost 70 boards.

James Avramenko: 19:29

That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, the thing that the thing that really struck me about, like the photos I saw the orders was that it looked like a worthwhile charcute board you know, because, like, if, if you order one at a restaurant, it's always like two pieces of bread. And then they always have too much of the shitty cheese and too much of the shitty meat and not enough of the good stuff and like and Jennica will will make them all the time. And it's the only way that they're worthwhile because you, you portion them to make them worthwhile. You know, and and yours always looked like, yours always looked homemade, right? You know, and in the best sense of that that term right, you know in like, Oh shit, this is a value not like someone trying to cut costs.

Jane Sanden: 20:20

Oh yeah, I stock them as full as I can for sure

James Avramenko: 20:24

you have like a source for Do you have a source for the ingredients? Or is it like just just just good stuff for like?

Jane Sanden: 20:32

Okay, this has been like a little bit of a business learning for me. So I had this woman that was ordering like a charcuterie board a week. And finally, one day, she's like, Oh, my gosh, she and I have like all this branding and stuff. So it looks like I'm running this big business when really I'm just like making it in my parents kitchen. She's like, How's business? How's it going? Oh, you must have like, really amazing suppliers, blah, blah, blah. And like, the truth is that I get a lot of stuff from Costco and other grocery stores. Sometimes I go to nicer cheese places, but you can get nice cheese and nice meat from those places. And of course, a banana from Walmart is the same as a banana from like, maybe not Whole Foods, because those are organic. But there are people that will like buy, never buy fruit at no frills because they somehow think it's lesser than Co Op, but it's just like the truck is stopping at one. And then the other.

James Avramenko: 21:49

Exactly. Well, that's something that I learned Actually, that's something I learned from buying supplies for theatres is like, you know, when you're when you're ordering all this stuff, like it's just the same truck, they just, they just load everything up on one, and then each store just gets a portion of the one truck. And so you know, and then they decide what they charge you. You know, and so it's like, yeah, you're spot on. It's the same fucking cheese. Like it's all coming from the same spot. It's just you the sucker who pays whatever amount you're paying.

Jane Sanden: 22:18

But that woman was so horrified that she hasn't talked to me since. Even though she had bought like 10 charcuterie boards

James Avramenko: 22:25

And had loved them, but had seemingly loved them.

Jane Sanden: 22:28

I think she might have been embarrassed because she's like, Oh, your stuff is always so fresh. It's so good. It's so like, crisp and fresh. And the best charcuterie I've ever had, like, I get them in restaurants. And they're just not as good as this. And then I told her stuff is from Costco and like, no.

James Avramenko: 22:46

radio silence. Wow. Well, you know what, you know what? You you've gotten everything you need from her so you can move on. That's cool. So do you think that you'll do you think you'll somehow keep that going when you go back to Toronto? Or do you think that that's just like a time pass? Or no?

Jane Sanden: 23:06

Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out. Like, I don't have a very big kitchen in Toronto, and I don't have a vehicle in Toronto,

James Avramenko: 23:14

right.

Jane Sanden: 23:16

I also like have been selling a lot to my parents, friends who are old and rich. And those aren't really my contacts in Toronto. So yeah, I will have to approach marketing in a different way.

James Avramenko: 23:29

You got to get a commercial on this hour. Right? You know, you got to get you got to get Chris

Jane Sanden: 23:33

Oh, yeah!

James Avramenko: 23:37

You've got to get him to do his his knife selling skills with your charcuterie boards.

Jane Sanden: 23:43

Well, I don't think I mean, Chris is my roommate. I don't know if you know that. But I do. I don't know if he wants a charcuterie operation in our house. So it might be against his best interest.

James Avramenko: 23:55

Or you can say, Listen, if you're gonna have a YouTube production company in our house, I get to have a charcute company, you know,

Jane Sanden: 24:04

you're right. That is an excellent point.

James Avramenko: 24:10

You gonna tell your little jokes. You tell you a little jokes, Chris. You know, at the heart of this show, and especially what has since become like I think I started the show as a bit of a joke and it's since morphed into something a little bit more. I don't want to say profound but it's really really become about the question of, if I've been a good friend and and if I'm going to answer that question, what I'm trying to get to the bottom of is what it even means to be a friend. And so I love hearing all this sort of spectrum of answers that that people come up with. And I'm and I'm curious what your answer to this would be would would be how do you personally define friendship?

Jane Sanden: 25:24

Mm hmm. I listened to your episode with Sarah Tuppen this week. And that was great. I think she actually articulated something that I think about, which is like, kind of friends or people who see you and are seen by you. Yeah, so I guess it's to see and be seen. Yeah, essentially. And in that is acceptance.

James Avramenko: 25:55

Yeah.

Jane Sanden: 25:58

So I think that's the big one. I really love fun people. So truly fun is a really important part of any of my friendships.

James Avramenko: 26:11

Totally. It's hard to it's really hard to stick around with people who are kind of a pain in the ass, though, I feel like that.

Jane Sanden: 26:18

But I've, I'm pretty extroverted. And something that I wish that I was better at is like putting more effort into getting to know people that aren't immediately don't immediately connect with me or make themselves obvious. Like I had a colleague that became a friend, and she was wonderful, but I never would have put that effort into getting to know her. She's more introverted.

James Avramenko: 26:51

that's something that I that I have been trying to clock more of. And obviously, it's a little bit harder, because like, I'm not really meeting new people this year,you know, but like, in terms of just for me, right now, it's less about the goal, long term friendship and more about just like, daily interaction of like, when I when I encounter someone who may not necessarily behave straightaway how I, you know, think a, quote unquote good person would behave, I'm trying really hard not to knee jerk to thinking, just the worst thoughts about them, right. And instead, I try really hard to like, frame it as like, well, what's going on with their day, what's going on with their life that's making them react and behave like this, you know, and how much of it is, how much of it is compensation for, you know, internalized shame, or fear of rejection or desire to be, you know, in community with someone, but they don't know how to do that. And, you know, because there's so much more going on behind people's anger than we give it credit for. Right. And, and, and I think that, because I'm right there with you, I think the baseline is seeing and being seen, and and i think that that's like that's the root of empathy. Right? is it's not, it's not what's the word like, it's not sympathizing, which I think is different, right? sympathizing? I think is like justifying, whereas empathizing, is understanding, you know, and, and not giving excuses for, you know, and I think that's, you know, because when you see someone for who they are, it's because you see who they really are not who you want them to be, you know, and who you're making them to be. And whereas, like, and I'm trying to take that kind of behavior, that sort of friendship behavior to strangers, and be like, Okay, well, what is it that's making you angry, because it's not just that you're an angry person, it's not just that you're a bad person, or, you know, all the number of like, dehumanizing words that we like to use for strangers who we disagree with, right? So you know, and, and instead, apply it more to like, you know, how can I calmly give you the love that you deserve? And the acceptance that you deserve? and all those kinds of things, right?

Jane Sanden: 29:04

Mm hmm. Interesting. I wonder if you're like me in this way, too. I don't expect my friends to give me a blanket experience of friendship. And the beautiful thing about friendship is that you can connect in different ways with different people, like some people I have really great banter with and I really value that some people are more emotionally connected. Some people know my family better. And it's like, the richness of life and having lots of friends is having different people that understand and appreciate you in other ways. And I have friends that are super flaky, but like I can, I'm fine with one flaky friend because they're I can appreciate something about them. But I think that there are some people that just need people to be meet all this criteria. Yeah, thing, you know?

James Avramenko: 30:12

Yep. And I think that I don't want to call that selfish because I don't, I don't think that's what it actually is. But like, I'm right there with you. Like, I don't need my friends to be my everything. And I'm almost, I'm almost leery of people who expect you to be more than what you can offer. Right? You know, because when it when it comes to those kinds of behaviors, I often feel like, you're, you're, you're putting more pressure on me than I'm able to give. Right? And and, yeah, because like, I can't expect, you know, every one of my friends to be able to connect with me on every single level, because I'm a multi, you know, I'm, you know, I don't know what the right way, you know, I contain multitudes. Right? And so does everyone else. And so like, we're obviously not going across every path together, but, but what's really fun and really, you know, vibrant and interesting is figuring out which paths do crossover? Those are always the things for me. Right? And, and, and then letting Yeah, I think the other side of that, and I'm right there, you know, right there with you is like letting, letting people be elsewhere as well. Right, like letting them not just be your friend, but letting them have the space to be friends elsewhere with other people who don't involve you. Right? I think that's just as important facet of it is like to not be possessive. You know?

Jane Sanden: 31:37

Did your, my perception of friendship changed? When I went to UVic, that was like a turning point for my ideas about friendship. I'm curious if you experienced the same thing?

James Avramenko: 31:50

I think so I think that but I would say, um, I think UVic taught me how to be a bad friend. And I yeah, I think it taught me to experience bad friendship, you know, and I think, like, I think, you know, I made good friends. But I think I also, like, learned a lot of really, really valuable. What not to do, you know, in both regards, right. And so I would say probably, I learned more coming out of UVic than I did going, you know, from from within it kind of thing. And I take that as a valuable lesson, too. I think it's just as important to learn. bad stuff is good stuff, right?

Jane Sanden: 32:34

Yeah. Oh, wow. That's interesting.

James Avramenko: 32:37

Is it like is it like, like, when you mean, like, do you mean, like, from your experience? Do you mean like, cuz you you created the best friendships or university? Or how do you mean,

Jane Sanden: 32:49

I think this idea of, like seeing someone and being seen, and I never felt truly that before I got to that, like, maybe because I was just friends with people that weren't quite. I don't know, I still have good friends from elementary school in high school. But there's something about finding your people that really, is something. Yeah, and I think the beautiful thing about being in theater and being friends with artists is they readily share of themselves. And there is an emotional and intellectual openness that I think a lot of average people don't have. So it's easier to connect if you're also open with that. So yeah, I don't know, I experienced a new level of friendship at UVic that I had never experienced before. And those friendships were real, like, my best friends are all a lot of them are still people that I met like in first year. So I, as I said, have moved around a lot and I know that you have to and I have taken away lessons from each city. Like Each place has taught me something. So I think UVic taught me how to live into who I truly am and how to make friends. Vancouver taught me like how to live a healthy lifestyle. That's when I started doing yoga and spending time outside Like, I was a vegetarian then and I was sleeping enough, whereas I was like, just treating my body like trash at UVic.

James Avramenko: 35:09

Yeah.

Jane Sanden: 35:11

And as I was saying before, like, Toronto taught me kind of how to hustle and be assertive. So I'm curious, like, what you have learned from each place that you've lived?

James Avramenko: 35:26

Wow. That's a really good question. Um, wow. Oh, man, I, that's one of those questions where it's like, I wish I had asked for a heads up on these because that's such a great question. And I feel like I can't do it justice, sort of off the cuff, right. But let's see. Okay, so Victoria, I think was the place where I learned to, like, accept, accept creativity, as not only good work, but just whatever my impulse is. I think that that's where I learned that like, a clown is just as vital to artistic expression, as you know, a sonnet or whatever, you know, whatever high art we, you know, I think in Vancouver, I learned Oh, man, Vancouver, I learned that it is one thing to have a dream of being an artist, and it's a whole other thing to actually live the art life. Because it's it's next to impossible if you're not willing to sacrifice for it. Right. And, and I think that in Vancouver, you know, I just got, I just got beat the fuck up. Every time I tried to do art, like that city just beat the shit out of me, you know? So it was it, which was, which was good, which was, you know, like, I don't want to say deserved in the way that I'm like, you know, I deserve to be unloved. But I mean, like, I think it's really important for artists to not be given things because I think that what what artists are giving, it needs to be not profound, but it needs to be genuine. Right. And I think that I think that when, when art and artists receive too much ease too early, it makes what they give, disingenuous, you know, because it becomes about, well, this was successful. So I'm gonna just keep doing this. And, you know, so, so I think that I think getting beat up for are is is important. Calgary was like, Calgary was,

Jane Sanden: 37:56

This is the Calgary of your adulthood.

James Avramenko: 37:58

Yeah exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And you know, you know, Calgary, I mean, yeah, cuz Calgary from my youth can just fuck off. So that I mean, Calgary was really where I came into my own as a, as a, as a partner to my now wife, you know, and what I really what, it's really the city where I learned what it takes to be a, like a partner to someone and what it takes to be in a genuinely dedicated intimate relationship and also how rewarding that is, you know, like, because both of us were so we were both people who sort of like, never expected to get married and never really saw the value of marriage. And then those three years really reinforced. Like, it's like, if you are lucky enough, as we are to have found somebody to to partner with like this, like it is. It's, it's, it's a genuine miracle, you know, and it's something worth not only celebrating, but also something that you really do work for. Like it's not it's not a movie, it's not a and you always get along, it's not a you know, it's always easy. Like it's it's something that's worth the work, which is which is work, you know, to be understanding and empathetic and generous and you know, and then Saskatoon Saskatoon taught me where not to live.No, you know what, you know what, though, actually, Saskatoon really taught me the value of, of this of reaching out to friends. It taught me the value of working for friendship. You know, if Calgary taught me about the value of intimate friend relationships Saskatoon really taught me the value of intimate friendships, you know, and, and and realizing that intimacy isn't just with the goal of hopping in The sack, you know what I mean? Like, intimate, intimacy is the goal of being emotionally vulnerable and connected with someone. And that isn't a romantic link. And it doesn't have to be a romantic link. And in fact, we should be more. I think we should be striving for more intimacy with our non romantic partners. Right, you know, and our friends and our you know, and that and so, you know, I really link friendless to Saskatoon, because it's where I started it. And so if you know, so, those are sort of intrinsic, you know, they're intrinsically linked. And I think that this show has taught me the value of working for intimacy with friends, right? Is that is that is really long winded?

Jane Sanden: 40:46

No, that's beautiful.

James Avramenko: 40:48

Well, thank you. I always feel like when I get talking, I accidentally sort of spin out and I kind of and I'm like, wait, oh, fuck, how long have I been talking for?

Jane Sanden: 40:57

No, I was hoping for that sort of response. Yeah,

James Avramenko: 41:04

well, there you go. You're welcome. With lockdown, probably stretching out further, you know, with the vaccine rollout being non existent in Canada. You know, we who knows what's coming down the line, you know, whether we stay more digitally based or whether we somehow open up? And I'm curious what you think it would take it will take in these next coming months to be a good friend in this world and going forward?

Jane Sanden: 41:45

I have found different ways to express friendship this year. Um, like my love languages, I would say, I don't know how familiar you are with the Five Love Languages love them.

James Avramenko: 41:58

Yeah, mine is getting presents.

Jane Sanden: 42:01

It it?

James Avramenko: 42:02

No I just like that one. I don't know I've only read the breakdowns. Anyway. Sorry, I'm spinning out.

Jane Sanden: 42:09

So there's five. It's like physical touch, words of affirmation, gift giving, acts of service, and quality time, right. And I think people fall towards although we all experience love, and all of those ways, they fall towards one or two of those. So mine are quality time and acts of service. And quality time is very difficult these days. So I love talking on the phone. So that's been a good thing to carry me through. But I have also sent people like tons of cards and presents this year, and like made handmade cards like for everyone's birthday, so um, I guess I've kind of shifted in how I express my friendship this year. To those love languages. yeah, I'm a horrible texter. So if people are friends with me, like, if you expect to text back right away, we, if that's important to you, we can't be friends. Like one of my friends texted me on a Friday, I bought a birthday card for her wrote in it and mailed it to Toronto. And I was willing to put in all that effort, but I was not willing to text her back. So I don't know what that's about. But I just

James Avramenko: 43:48

there's so much there's so much overvaluing of instant communication, right? There's so much overvaluing of text message as as if that's the normal baseline behavior. And so like, I I don't see a problem in that right. Like I don't I for me, personally, I've never had a problem with someone not texting me back. Because I don't, you know, I'm, I'm on my phone too much. Like from from my side, I'm on my phone too much. I do text back too quickly. But I don't care if somebody doesn't behave like that because I think that our attachments to these devices is unhealthy. You know, and so like I feel like anybody who's resistant to those kinds of behaviors are super healthy and probably have a better handle of those kinds of behaviors. You know, like, we just normalize we've baseline normalized text and instant and email and yada yada far too much for for for our for our subconscious, right.

Jane Sanden: 44:47

Yeah, for me, it's kind of about presence. And maybe that's also what I value in friendship. Like if I'm texting you, it's taking me out of a present moment, maybe with someone else And that text is not worth as much as what's happening in the moment. And 100%. So, yeah,

James Avramenko: 45:10

well, that's why I value. You know, it's why I value these interviews. And I do sometimes feel a little guilty about sort of, like, only feeling confident enough to have these conversations while creating this podcast, and not really having the confidence to just call you up and just have a chat, you know what I mean? Like, because this is really important to me, and this has been just such a wonderful hour, that it's like, I wish I had the competence to just have these conversations rather than making them into this podcast, you know, because I do feel that value deeply, right.

Jane Sanden: 45:47

It's such a gift to other people to like, I have loved listening to you talk to people that I also know, it's like, given me so much comfort in the pandemic, it's like a passive way of connecting deeply with other people. Well, I have other friends who, yeah, I have other friends with podcast too. And this maybe is crazy. But sometimes I'll like, put someone a friend of mines podcast on and fall asleep to it. And then like, go back and listen the next day, but there's like something so comforting about that in times when we can be with one another.

James Avramenko: 46:27

Yeah, you know, I, a few people have told me this. And every time it means a lot to me, actually. Because I've been told that it's like, it's the source of comfort, because it's sort of like low stakes conversation. It's like, you get to participate, but you also don't have to worry about actually participating in the conversation, you know, and all the all the stress that comes into play there of like, having to navigate, you know, keeping up with the subject or whatever it might be, you know, and and, yeah, it means a ton to me that I'm that I'm helping people, right, you know, like, cuz I'm just like, I'm just trying to make this goofy little show. And I'm just trying to, like, tell as many people as I can, that I love them and like hopefully that like, helps other people out. Right, you know, and, but

Jane Sanden: 47:14

yeah, yeah, sure. A lot of us,

James Avramenko: 47:17

for sure. Well, you're welcome world

Jane Sanden: 47:22

Thank you James!

James Avramenko: 47:24

Now give it a five star review. But, on that note, we do have to wrap up and I do have one last thing, but before I do, I just, you know, you know, I was talking about a little before but I just, you know, I really want to make a point to saying like, you know, Jane, you're you're a dear friend of mine and and I just I cherish the memories I have of you and and i and i love anytime we crossed paths and I just like I'm so grateful that you are my friend and that we've had the chance to like weave in and out and and find the paths of our friendships that that do correlate, right and I just I think you're the fucking best and I'm so I'm so grateful. You're in my life, you know?

Jane Sanden: 48:06

Thank you, James. The feeling's mutual.

James Avramenko: 48:09

But we do have one thing we got to do. So I'm going to pull up your Facebook here and and chain sand and we There we go. We are no longer Facebook friends.

Jane Sanden: 48:20

James, well, you know, I bet you were one of my first Facebook friends too.

James Avramenko: 48:53

That is it. Thank you one more time to Jane for coming on the show. I absolutely adore her and I'm just so thankful I get to call her a friend. If you want to be a friend to the show, please review the episode with a five star review. And if you can share the links to try and spread the word about friendless sharing is not only caring, but it turns out it's also free. Something that isn't free is the new Patreon I have launched to try and support the development of friendless starting at just five bucks you can get access to exclusive content, unedited and ad free episodes a private discord and so much more. If you have the ability to help the show out follow the link in the show notes and I thank you in advance. Be sure to follow friendless on all the social medias @friendlesspod and feel free to drop me a line anytime by email at friendlesspod@gmail.com. But that's it for me. I guess it wasn't really a huge news week. So I'll just wrap it up. Make sure to listen to the latest episode of raised by the movies. And then have yourselves as great a week as you can, tell someone you love them, and then tell someone else. And then I'll catch you back here next week with another episode of friendless. BUt that of course is then this is now. So for now, I'll say I love you and I'll catch you soon. Fun and safety, y'all