Daniel Johnston!

James Avramenko: 0:00

Friendless is a proud member of the Saskatchewan Podcast Network, which is sponsored in part by Conexus credit union and Directwest. Hello my sweeties, you've stumbled onto the newest episode of Friendless, the only show about how to be a better friend by unfriending everyone you know on Facebook, I am as always your host, James Avramenko. On the journey to answer the question, have I been a good friend? And what does it even mean to be a good friend in 2021? This week, I have a dear friend on the show. brewery GM and former roommate Daniel Johnston, my sweet Daniel and I talked about roommates with benefits if benefits are wallowing in depression together, the unskilled labor of artistic directors, choosing a replacement for water, and so much more. Dan is an incredible man, and I'm so lucky to call him a friend. And you're so lucky to get to hear the interview. You lucky duck you. But I won't waste any more of your time. Let's just dive right into the interview so you can hear what I've been grinning about ever since I recorded this. So lean back, get comfy. Turn up that volume and enjoy my interview with Daniel Johnston here on friendless. Man, okay, so, uh, this week, I have a dear old friend of mine, a former roommate, who is still speaking to me on some level. We took a break. We took a break, we had a breather, we had a little breather, but I have my sweet booboo, Daniel Johnston on the show. How the hell are you my guy?

Daniel Johnston: 1:54

I'm great. How are you?

James Avramenko: 1:56

It's been Oh, it's been a weird decade. Since the last time we saw each other.

Daniel Johnston: 2:03

I thought you're gonna just like Tell me about your day. Like it's been a weird day. No, just straight to decade,

James Avramenko: 2:09

buddy. There's no small talk on Friendless. Here. We just we you know, also because most of the most of my guests I haven't seen in at least five years. I just thought we were doing like a theater school check in like,

Daniel Johnston: 2:20

how are you right now?

James Avramenko: 2:23

Where are you holding tension?

Daniel Johnston: 2:26

Let's Can we just vocalize to get it out? Oh.

James Avramenko: 2:33

Oh, my God, we could tap out here. I could use a fucking tap out.

Daniel Johnston: 2:39

I realize that like, you're like, I'm so sore. You're like, Oh, I am holding tension. Like they told me I was. But then you don't do anything about like,

James Avramenko: 2:51

Oh, my God, I have one of those awful meditation apps that's like, it'll send me periodic reminders. There'll be like, release your jaw. And I'll do it. I'll be like, oh, fuck.

Daniel Johnston: 3:02

Those make me feel bad about myself. So I'm just like, turn off notifications. You've been sitting for a long time. I'm like, I'm at work! How dare you leave me alone.

James Avramenko: 3:12

I want to hear about where you're at these days. Because last time we spoke to any kind of extended period of time you were talking about working? Do you run your own restaurant now? Where you You're like a co owner founder or something like that? Or am I totally off base?

Daniel Johnston: 3:28

I am the general manager of a craft brewery in New Westminster called Steel and Oak brewing.

James Avramenko: 3:36

that's amazing. And so how did you? How did you get hooked up with that?

Daniel Johnston: 3:41

I did the restaurant thing for like two decades, like, almost, which is a grind. And I found myself wanting a different lifestyle and more consistent hours. And you know, you find a partner and you're trying to get your lives sorted out together. So when Jessica and I started dating and getting serious, it was like, we were on opposite schedules. And it was difficult to do. A couple of gentlemen that I went to high school with started this brewery. And so I had always been friends with him. And we were chatting and they needed someone to take over their tasting room. They'd only been open for like six months. They were doing it themselves. So I started doing that. Now we've been here for Oh, man, almost six years. Wow. I just kind of Yeah, worked my way through

James Avramenko: 4:36

well, and it's and you know, of all the people who you know, of all the people who had the sort of like that path of going through being a server and all those things. It does feel like it makes the most sense that you ended up where you ended up like in sort of retrospect when I see your your path, it's like, oh, yeah, of course you need to be running a restaurant.

Daniel Johnston: 4:56

I really liked that industry. I still like it. It's just really different. Especially a traditional sort of restaurant job. Yeah. And so, I mean, I had to make a decision at one point is like, I got a job at a really good restaurant in Vancouver. I was Sham bar.

James Avramenko: 5:13

Yes, I remember. I literally I have memories of of you on shift being like, yeah, you should pop in for a drink. And I don't I always go in for like a cocktail. And then I'd be so intimidated by the whole atmosphere, right? That'd be like, I need to finish this get out.

Daniel Johnston: 5:28

Fine dining yeah. But there's a difference between like working in a restaurant and like picking up shifts and whatever. But like, Oh, I got to show so I need all these days off and whatever. And then at a certain point, it's like any, if you take it serious, and it's a career, it's like, well, if you want to work here, here's the expectations. You can just fuck off and do this. And I was like, Okay, well, but I want that job. And then like, well, it was at that, like, transition point in acting, too is like, oh, and I was like, I'm sick of not knowing if I was getting a paycheck. Yeah. And so I got that job. And, of course, like, a month later, I got cast in a show and Chemainus, which is their summer musical, which is like, oh, you're gone for five months. Yeah, I suppose that was my turning point where it was like, Okay, I just got this job. But this really good restaurant where the opportunities are good, the money is good, I could learn a lot. Or, gosh, man is and keep trying to do that. And I decided to stay the restaurant and basically, stop acting for all intents purposes. After that, I did a handful of shows here and there. But it just became restaurants after that. And I started popping around and moving up. And then I was a bar manager and general manager and learning from really good people. And I just got into that industry. So

James Avramenko: 6:46

man, what an incredible journey I'd like I just, it's, you know, cuz I, you know, I, when we were living together, this was now like, close to a decade ago, like, I was thinking about how you were doing that, that sort of balancing act, you know, and like, What a nightmare that life is, you know, and I think that I think that not enough people outside of the sort of like theater bubble, really, truly understand that. It's like, you know, you hear dumb things, but like, burning the candle at both ends, or you hear these dumb, you know, like, why don't you get a real job or whatever it is. And it's like, it's, it's, it's physically impossible to balance the two elements of a lifestyle, if you want to be dedicated to like, an art life and then also be able to eat and and and pay your rent every month.

Daniel Johnston: 7:35

It's really hard to be good at both. Yes. Like, you can do both, but you're never I don't know that you'll ever really succeed in either. restaurant industry. Hospitality in general is really easy to dismiss. Yeah, it's a stepping stone. It's, you know, you pick it up to make some extra money and like, you're relying on tips and you're doing whatever, but like, there's a giant section of people that that's their chosen path in life and they're really really good.

James Avramenko: 8:04

Oh, man, you know, you you know, a born you know, like a restauranter you know, I hate using the word like, I hate using Word. I feel like, it's not the nice word to say, like a server or something like that. I feel like it's very demeaning, you know, but like, those positions of like,

Daniel Johnston: 8:18

you're right. You're a restaurant professional, right. That's your let literally, that's why people shit on it. Yes, you're like, Oh, your server, but like, think about what that actually means. Like, what you're giving someone as a choice. You're being compensated for it. Yeah. But also people who make that choice to just demean those people were like, oh, you're just as everybody. I just gave you a wonderful experience. Yeah, an amazing time. You're here. Everything was great. Your water was always full. Yeah. They gave you a delicious wine recommendation. You had a fantastic night out. And then you're like, Yeah, what are you gonna do, though? Yeah. What's your next step? like? I like doing this for people, right? Like, and there's shitty parts of every job. And there's shitty days, and every job was shitty. People who come in and treat you shitty. And that's as many times as I can use the word shitty in one sentence.

James Avramenko: 9:14

I think you could squeeze one more in there.

Daniel Johnston: 9:16

Yeah, but that shit can be rewarding.

James Avramenko: 9:18

Exactly. You know, that's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently about the idea of like, you know, because we call it unskilled work. And it's fundamentally very skilled. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And, and then at the same time, too, it's like, we have this weird disconnect with the idea of what is career worthy and what is path worthy and and, and the things that are fundamental to our day to day lives are also aspects of work that we don't respect and I think it's because we come like we become blind to them, right? It's like you become like, taste blind to it because it's like, you know, if you if you see, you know, you don't Donald's kids and you know, you know, you know, and you demean them, and then you see servers and you demean them. And yet, every single day, they are fundamental to maintaining your lifestyle. How can you possibly see them as you know, as irrelevant? Yeah, right.

Daniel Johnston: 10:17

And this pandemic is a great example. Because what's still open when everything is shut down, or restaurants are open to go, when restaurants are open, like, people don't want to fucking cook at home. 30 people right there. There's, they don't know how or they don't like it or whatever it may be. But like, people view it as unskilled because it can be done by unskilled people, right? And sometimes you get bad ones. But that's true. Most jobs.

James Avramenko: 10:42

Literally, anybody can do anything.

Daniel Johnston: 10:45

He didn't hire anybody who can bullshit their way through an interview and hire but they don't know what they're doing, or they're bad at it. Right? Yep. It's just because they're out in the forefront. Or you've had one bad experience.

James Avramenko: 10:55

And we call those people artistic directors in the theater.

Daniel Johnston: 11:03

I'm going to tell Rachel and Caitlin, you said that keep this in keep this Rachel with Caitlin, if you're listening, James things around. And you don't deserve your job. But I disagree. I disagree. I think you're wonderful.

James Avramenko: 11:17

You know what I'm, I'm gonna tentatively walk that statement back. With that, not all ADs. All right, perfect. But so, so let's go back a little bit. Um, because we, you know, you're you're one of those friends of mine that are from that, like, that soup of university, you know, of like, yeah, I could not if you had a gun to my head. I could not tell you how we met. When we met where we met. It was just one of those ideas. Right? It was one of those one day I didn't know, Dan, and then the next day it did.

Daniel Johnston: 11:57

Well, it also must be said. Like, I didn't even go to university. Right. So Tim, is Tim is my twin brother. Yeah. Tim. Is it you Vic? Tim is live living with like, Brian. Yep. And Jamie and Marco. Right, Jared? Yep. And so I was in between I had a year off between high school and now what was it? I wasn't already school. Working but then I was going every weekend to just party in Victoria with you guys. So I met you somewhere Yeah, make you karaoke or at the manor somewhere the house of standards. I don't know. I love

James Avramenko: 12:40

this is the best part is that I'm sure this is a very ubiquitous university experience. But like But for us, we had these these series of houses that would be appropriated by a group of young men and then ruined and they would all and they would all earn nicknames right there was the Mayfair house and which had like a room of bottled trophies just lined and then there was the house of sand and fog because it was on Kingsley Kingsley.

Daniel Johnston: 13:12

And Ben Kingsley Sir Ben sir Ben Kingsley starred in the movie The House of sandals.

James Avramenko: 13:16

And then and and it's in its collection was horrifying dead spiders in the window sills. And they're just

Daniel Johnston: 13:26

the sketchiest landlord where he didn't care, the worst landlord.

James Avramenko: 13:30

And it's funny because I ended up like, I knew people who lived in other properties that he owned, and it was never got better.

Daniel Johnston: 13:38

He's just he was just a college slumlord here and these houses and just rented them out to college. Yeah. What do you pick and just nothing? Everything was broken. But everybody split the rent. So we just charge high money, high rent and big money. Yeah, right. Exactly.

James Avramenko: 13:53

And now I remember. So I don't I don't remember when we met but I do remember for me, at least when I felt like we bonded and it was a night. You may remember this. I don't know. It was a closing Night of the very first run of ride the cyclone. And him had been in it and you know, he'd had his part. And you and I were just at the party. It was in print smells like loft. You know her big open loft in Chinatown. Yeah. And above the teeth. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And everyone kept on coming up to you and congratulating you on your and you were while we both were getting progressively drunker as the night went on and you were getting progressively angrier with it. I was avid ball with it.

Daniel Johnston: 14:42

I also think what happened was at some point Tim left. I was hanging out with you and like we had just met we had really no. We knew each other. We hadn't really hung out like that. I think Jay Jay was probably I was probably around the Hitman was there. And the thing is, it depends on the drinks I've had. Yeah. But most of the time, either you have to immediately correct someone. Yeah. When they come up to you and think you're your twin. And then they're like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know. Or if you know, it's gonna be short interaction. You just pretend you're like, Oh, yeah, great to see it. Fantastic. And then you tell your twin brother later, like I saw. You said he worked with you at Hell's Kitchen.

James Avramenko: 15:25

He was crosseyed at the time, but

Daniel Johnston: 15:28

no idea. But then once you start drinking, and over the course of an evening, when it keeps happening, then you just start to feel hard. Oh, yeah. As you do with your years younger to try to find identity like I'm not. Meanwhile, at an after party of a show he was in all people who had been at the show that he's not even there. So of course, people think I'm

James Avramenko: 15:49

but why am I I just remembered you. I just remember watching because every time it would happen, I would immediately like it. I'd like kind of look at you. And just watching you, like, push it down every time just push it down.

Daniel Johnston: 16:04

For no reason. For no reason. But it started with like, I thank you so much. Yeah, like it was fun. And then eventually I was like, just so we and then I was like How the hell do I get back to the house of sand and fog. Everybody else laughed. At address, oh my god, I gotta pull up my clamshell phone.

James Avramenko: 16:27

Please take me to the house of sand and fog.

Daniel Johnston: 16:31

It's near that Thai place on the corner on Kinzie Street. That's all I know, get out of my car.

James Avramenko: 16:39

But so so years years progress and and you end up at I'd like to hear how you ended up at the Bayswater house. Because that was yet another like fresh out of university. It got sort of swarmed by a couple of fresh graduate men and then stayed in the sort of Phoenix ecosystem for the better part of a decade.

Daniel Johnston: 17:03

And yeah, house was was it James and Mac? And

James Avramenko: 17:09

Chris I think so. I think those are the originals those sound those sounds and then

Daniel Johnston: 17:15

I believe James was leaving, and I was gonna move there. And then I had moved just moved from from Toronto. And I was living in like East van. And Brian, nothing needed a place to live. So I gave up that place because Brian really needed somewhere to live. So he took James's spot. And then a couple months later, Mac was leaving. Right? And so they called me first and I took Mac spot and so it was mean Brian and Chris for a while. And then when Chris left. Enter Jim's ever mess when I swoop in.

James Avramenko: 17:51

And I was having I was in I was in the midst of one of the one of if not the most unhealthy year of my life.

Daniel Johnston: 17:59

I was in don't say good never would have

James Avramenko: 18:02

was in the throes of the deepest depression I ever had.

Daniel Johnston: 18:06

You seemed so just together and pleasant most of the time.

James Avramenko: 18:13

Was I that bad?

Daniel Johnston: 18:15

No, not at all. I'm just giving you a hard time

James Avramenko: 18:16

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Daniel Johnston: 18:18

I mean we were all in similar places

James Avramenko: 18:21

Yeah, I don't think anybody was having a great time that year.

Daniel Johnston: 18:24

No, I was probably the most reasonable but that's just because I was working nights so I couldn't go out with you guys. Yeah, I'd work night to come home and then just drink with you when I got home. Yeah, most of the time. I didn't get home till like one. You guys were just hanging out. We were just getting started. Tiger Woods or

James Avramenko: 18:51

Yeah, Jesus fucking Christ.

Daniel Johnston: 18:54

We ended up there together.

James Avramenko: 18:56

Yeah, yeah. And so and so do you want to tell the story of how that house fell? Is that a story we can tell? Is that a story we could tell him the

Daniel Johnston: 19:06

crazy thing about that house? Okay, so it's it's this nice, older home in Bayswater in McDonald basic toe kitsilano. But it's the top floor of this house and on the main floor. Live to this babos her name?

James Avramenko: 19:25

Marjorie.

Daniel Johnston: 19:26

Marjorie. It just left me I think isn't March Marjorie. Right. Yeah, she was a Scottish lady and she was gone half the year. She just rented out upstairs and the basement though. I never saw anyone who ever lived in the basement. I lived there for like two and a half years.

James Avramenko: 19:40

Yeah. There was a rumor that like they always they always She always said there was somebody there but never saw no,

Daniel Johnston: 19:48

no. And then she was fairly patient to the nice lady. You know who's five and then one day she just she got upset that were too loud. Yeah, we couldn't live there anymore.

James Avramenko: 20:01

Well and the thing was too was that what had happened? Well I you know without without going into details about that but uh, but but you had moved into the the main level I was in the upper floor but because I was the new one, she came up and funny enough she ended up ripping Brian anyone because of as quote that James fella

Daniel Johnston: 20:26

she barely knew who you were don't even know you live there. She said that's the thing about that house is like, she thought that you were James Kot. No idea, she just rotated people through it. She had no idea as long as the money showed up.

James Avramenko: 20:38

Yeah, exactly. We just didn't miss rent and so that everything was fine, right. But

Daniel Johnston: 20:42

well, we occasionally missed rent, but we always got there.

James Avramenko: 20:46

And, and so then when? When that house dissolves, where do you end up going? This is where we sort of like, this is where we sort of broke off and I

Daniel Johnston: 20:57

that has dissolved. We have to leave. We are running out of time. We have to be out by the end of September. Yeah. You are gone. Yeah. didn't help us clean her pack? No, thanks a lot.

James Avramenko: 21:14

Y'all got me kicked out of that fucking house.

Daniel Johnston: 21:18

You're upset. You took off. You left me a bunch of graphic novels. So we'll call it even. Brian and I were trying to find somewhere to live. And Brian and I found in apartment. September 26. We had to be out by September 30. And that's what we ended up moving to Camby which is where I still currently live with my wife with two children.

James Avramenko: 21:44

Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.

Daniel Johnston: 21:48

So like a cop colleague of his at the Vancouver hospital. Their friend was leaving this apartment. And so we ended up and it was a great like 1950s like 900 square feet. That's great.

James Avramenko: 22:05

Oh my god, I fucking love that. That's amazing.

Daniel Johnston: 22:07

Camby village baby. And,

James Avramenko: 22:09

and so and so. Yeah. And so last last section. You now are father Daniel.

Daniel Johnston: 22:19

That sounds like it went to the seminary.

James Avramenko: 22:21

Well, I know you are. I don't know if I want to say lapsed. But

Daniel Johnston: 22:27

I've got questions. I mean, I have questions. But yes, I did grow up very Catholic. Thank you. Yeah. Because of that, if you call me father Daniel, it's kind of strange

James Avramenko: 22:38

Right? Right. Right. It's a little triggering for you. It kind of gets you back up a little bit.

Daniel Johnston: 22:42

You know, like my two and a half year old was just like, father. Maybe I'll get him to be adorable. Yeah,

James Avramenko: 22:48

just get it. Get him to call you father Daniel.

Daniel Johnston: 22:53

Sometimes he just calls me Daniel, because Jessica calls me Daniel. Lauren, so just run over. But like Daniel, I'm like, it's dead. You call me Dad? He's like, genuine. Like, what about dad yell and say, I want to say you made the hitting shout not me. Okay. Just for the record. You know what? I'm doing. Daniel is pretty good. Daniel.

James Avramenko: 23:20

Yeah,

Daniel Johnston: 23:21

I'll try that out.

James Avramenko: 23:22

Yeah, yeah, give it a shot. It's worth it's worth testing out. See if it works. Right. You know, but, but, but you have this thriving family? Um, and I know your second your, your daughter was born during quarantine? And how like, what was that? Like?

Daniel Johnston: 23:42

It was very strange. Yeah.

James Avramenko: 23:44

Could you be around? Or was Jessica just like alone in a room?

Daniel Johnston: 23:48

No, no, I could be there. I had to have a mask. Okay, and whatnot. But. So just being was born in the end of July 2020. So lockdown started, like mid pregnancy and then we had but the hardest part, the birth itself was okay. So you got to be there and we got to deal with that. But then most of the time you have a baby and then everyone needs the baby and you have support and people come over and give you a hand or have another kid they can take care of that kid you can take that like we weren't allowed to buddy not allowed to do any of that. Right? So that's the hardest part for sure. And it's hard for other people do because they just people love baby. grandmas and aunts and uncle. Yeah, just want to hold them. Yeah, you just want to go You can't because you might have a virus.

James Avramenko: 24:44

Yeah. And even worse, the baby might have the virus and give it to you killed by a baby. Like an L man.

Daniel Johnston: 24:53

Like I'm Maggie Simpson situation. deep cut for you.

James Avramenko: 25:04

You know, I'm sure listeners have gotten sick of this spiel. But um, you know, I always like to sort of like just preamble slightly going into this episode or into this question just because it's, you know, I feel like friendship is such a broad and undefinable thing, and I'm on this sort of endless. I don't wanna say quest that sounds overly dramatic for what it is, but I like it. You know,

Daniel Johnston: 25:26

I'd also like to point out that you think people are sick of explanation of the podcast that they listened to time and again, you never know.

James Avramenko: 25:34

Right? You know, you know, I mean, I know, I, you know, see this look, I'm working on it with my therapist, I have a lot of, I have a lot of like, self loathing and shame ingrained. And a lot of insecurities with that. So, you know,

Daniel Johnston: 25:47

we've met

James Avramenko: 25:49

Hi, my name is James and I hate myself. So

Daniel Johnston: 25:55

But you're loved by others, though, you know, there's a balance,

James Avramenko: 25:57

and I and I, and I, and I, I can sometimes feel that. But you know, so

Daniel Johnston: 26:04

Thanks Jennica shout out.

James Avramenko: 26:07

So, you know, I'm very much on a, on a sort of a on a mission to figure out what the fuck it even means to be a friend and what it means to be a good friend and most rooted with, like, how have I been a good friend? Because, you know, I know I've been I know, I've been shitty. And I know, I've fucked up in the past. And I guess I'm wondering, like, does it balance out? You know, and and, and so I think to start with that, I think the very first thing I want to ask is for you personally, like how do you define friendship?

Daniel Johnston: 26:35

I think to touch on what you just said, Before I get into that, like, of course, you know, when you've been a shitty friend, like, because those are the moments that come back to bite you or that, you know, become issues. Yeah, but you never think about all the time. You're a good friend or even an okay, friend. Yeah. Right. Like, that's the majority of the time otherwise, no one would be fucking friends with you. Right? So yeah, we've all been shitty friends at some point. But like, most of the time, you're probably a pretty decent. Yeah, it's just in are so ingrained in our psyche to only remember those shitty.

James Avramenko: 27:10

And that's the thing too, you know, your therapist said the same thing. Yeah, well, and that's true. I mean, you're you're spot on. And it's something that's so hard. And you have to be so mindful of, and you have to be so like, and the problem is that it's like, for me personally, it you know, it comes easy to remember the shit, right? It comes easy. Remember that every time I've been a deck, but it's so fucking hard to remember when I've been nice. You know?

Daniel Johnston: 27:30

And, and I, it's that thing when somebody when somebody reminds you of when you did something good for them? Yeah. Like, you remember that time? And you really helped me through that you're like, No, no, I have no recollection of doing that for you. Because that's not the intention when you do it. Yeah. doing it for any So okay, so get back to your question. Yeah. Right. Obviously, you send us this question ahead of time, I've listened to your show. And I, I liked it. He explained this every time because it makes you think every time. So I think the best way I could say it is like friendship is the understanding between two people that they find worth and value in each other. Right? Oh, Daniel, it's finding like minded, empathetic, thoughtful people that you want to share your life with. And if you're a typical type of person, you're going to be drawn to people who are the same, right? And like, the people you choose as friends, especially, like really close friends or people, you spend a lot of time with their reflection of who you are in your own choice. Yeah, that's why people are like, like, these guys, your friends are like, friends. We're, we're friends. Yeah, we're acquaintances. We hang out with them. I don't know, for friends, because we kind of elevated friends to this thing, where like, it's a part of you to be a friend, because you recognize yourself somewhere in there, right? Yeah, like, you and I are friends. Because we have things in common. And we both are empathetic people and we both struggle with like self worth, or depression. And these are things we've talked about, right? But because you can find them and somebody else, you start to share that aspect of yourself. And it might not cross all spectrums or all streams, but to share some thing like that with somebody that's below a surface level. Yeah, right. That's what it means to start being friends. But I think it'd be varying levels of friendship, sure. But sharing that sense of worth and value in another human being that's, I think what it means a friend,

James Avramenko: 29:41

man Dan, I'm not gonna lie that like, just listening to tell that like made me feel like a little emotional. Like just like thinking about that. And it's like, it's just a really nice, it's a nice reminder that it doesn't have to be the big thing every time right that you can and you can go You know, days, weeks, months, years, and remain loved and not and remain appreciated, right? You know, and

Daniel Johnston: 30:09

we're always taught, and we keep getting reminded that the first person, you need to take care of yourself. Take care of yourself, because you can't take care of yourself. You don't find value in yourself, how can you share that with other people? Right? So if that's what we're taught, but then people give you a hard time, because you're not a good enough friend or you're not available enough, what you're doing is self preservation or what you're doing is trying to make sure that you are okay.

James Avramenko: 30:32

Yeah.

Daniel Johnston: 30:34

Really good friends understand that. Yeah. Right. And you can just pick up where you left off. And if you need anything. I'm fucking right here. Yeah, yeah, no problem. You know,

James Avramenko: 30:46

I gotta say, I gotta say, it's something that I've been really appreciative of you over the last couple years, especially as we've sort of reconnected and it's funny that, like, we've reconnected only digitally because we haven't really seen each other like, since genican. I moved away from Vancouver in 2014, you know, and so that longer. Yeah, man, man, we've been in Saskatoon. almost four years, let alone gone. You know, I mean, so it's like, gross. Yeah. fucked up. Right. And, but like, something I've just been, like, just constantly grateful for is, is your like, yeah, your availability and like, not in like, to use you way, but just in, like, when we, when we do check in, we'll have this chat that will go on for like a day. And then yeah, it'll peter out. And that's what happens. But it's like, it's this like, fabulous, just reminder that there is somebody out there who I love and who loves me, you know, and, and it doesn't have to be this like, deep. You know, digging thing. It's just like, it's sometimes it's okay to just be nice, right? Or be kind.

Daniel Johnston: 31:52

And to tell someone you're thinking about them. But like, I was very lucky. And I grew up in a very loving household and right word, liberal for us. We use the word level the time. Yeah, but it's so strong. And to just remind somebody, you're just like, hey, love you. Yeah, buddy. Yeah. And it's just, it's different. Right? They just let, cuz even if you're having a chat, and you can assume that someone loves you, they appreciate you. Like, I actively try and tell people, either I love them, or I appreciate you, or like, because I appreciate that myself. And so I'm trying to share that aspect, right. It's a reflection of things, but like, why wouldn't you tell somebody? You know, I mean, there's lots of reasons we don't have to totally get it. But

James Avramenko: 32:39

I think about that constantly. And especially because, like, you know, I grew up thinking, I came from a loving family. And this is not by any means to like, get into, like, you know, you know, reparenting to James 101. Right, you know, but

Daniel Johnston: 32:54

you want Mark Maron this right?

James Avramenko: 32:55

Right, exactly. Well, you know, I really, I Well, you know, but you you didn't get the love, you didn't throw it up, you didn't get the love, you know, you know, well, yeah, I don't think I don't think I got the love I actually needed, right, you know what I mean? And, and I'm only really now realizing that as I as I work on, you know, re parenting and sort of re re, you know, re loving myself essentially, right. And so, I, for years thought I was a very outgoing Lee loving person. And I'm realizing now that like, I was outgoing, and I was empathetic, but I don't know if I was always as loving as I want to be or feel to be right. And that's a big part of this show is making sure I communicate that and also encouraging others to communicate it because I think it's one thing to be loving. And that's really important. And that's like, that's probably more important, all things considered just to like to be kind, I think, I think actions are far more important than words, you know, but words are still important, and how you communicate is still just as important. And so it's one thing to be really nice. It's a whole other thing to be nice and say I love you and make sure you reach out and say hi, and all those things, right?

Daniel Johnston: 34:06

So the important is that words are based on how genuine they are. Yeah, yeah. So I can say whatever I wanted, but if it didn't mean anything, then they're just words, but you can feel the difference. And they meet. Yep. Right. I'm going to preface this by saying this is mostly to get you on attention. So I'm aware of what I'm doing right? And this question, okay? Is there any value to theater school? Beyond the people you meet? None whatsoever.

James Avramenko: 35:16

None whatsoever, especially, especially in the modern culture. This is not me trying to be like an old man get off my guard. But I don't believe that the young people today are taught to be curious. And I don't think it's valuable to go to somewhere like University without genuine curiosity, because it's too much of a time commitment and it's way too much of a money commitment to go already thinking you have the answers, you have to go such an open blank slate and and then and then conversely, on the other side, I don't think that the university system is built any more for curiosity, either I think it's a it's a conveyor belt for workers, you know, and, like, it's a conveyor belt to ensure that you can no longer ever have a hope of breaking out of your cast. Because you come out with so much debt, and so much insecurity and especially somewhere like, you know, like theater school, the school is one of the most traumatic segments of my life when I think about the emotional toll that it did to me, you know, and and the the indoctrination and brainwashing that comes out of We're all family. Don't you love each other? We're all family. No, the fuck we're not give me a job.

Daniel Johnston: 36:45

Let me pay rent, you know, 100%. The issue I have with theater schools. Yeah. Last section you have there of the emotional trauma and indoctrination. Yeah, because, yeah. Listen, the school system is broken across all segments, right? It's not just theater school. But it's only in theater School, where you pay them to break you down in an unhealthy, unsafe way. Yeah, by people who are not qualified to do that. And then create unrealistic expectations of what the world is outside of this, that you don't have experience with yet. And they're like, Well, you can't do anything else while you're here. Yeah, while you're here, six days a week. This is the only world you know, you can't get a job. You can't. And if you do need to get a job, you're punished you paying for going here yet. You can't be on the show, or you can't be part of what we're building here. And it's like, an expectation of like, if this is what the real worlds like you're in a show. That's it and like, Yeah, but that's if you get cast in the professional theatre show, you'll be paid. You're being paid. And it's it's two months. Yeah, it's a month in the rehearsal hall at a regular schedule. Are you working like nine to six every day? Yeah. And then you do shows? It's not four years of never having a life and having to give everything up for whatever you might give me? Like, that's the part that hits me too hard. Let's do some sell a moment.

James Avramenko: 38:20

All the way off all the way off, you know, but yeah, yeah,

Daniel Johnston: 38:23

I didn't really I didn't really buy I didn't really buy you were listening on your son being tortured on tape. They're like, what are you teaching me?

James Avramenko: 38:32

What? In retrospect, it's just like, what are you even driving ad here? Like, what even is this, you know, and it really becomes about like, because, you know, there's this thought about, like, when someone creates a style, right, so, you know, we're all we're all taught some variation of the, it's the Stanislavski method, right? The the method, right? But the thing is that, like, the method is just what worked for whatever the fuck his name Constance Constantine Stanislavski, right, you know, it just worked for him. It was his process. And then he taught people how he acted. And what happens is, the further removed you get from a method that works for a personal actor style, the more like dogmatic it becomes, and and because of that, it becomes less useful to more people but so it's this inverse, effective, more people learn it, but less people are helped by it. And when your entire education, infrastructure is built off of a single style, you you aren't making artists you're you're making like debt machines, you know.

Daniel Johnston: 39:37

Well art is subjective. So how can you make an artist Well, that's only create them in one, and also like, the demand of the acting world are many and varied. Yeah, but that's why there's many very different types of accurate example, I have to get there the same way. If you want to teach emotional vulnerability or how to convey that like there To be healthier, more reasonable ways to do it before, you don't have to be an actor who can fucking do it all, except just stay in your lane. And if you want to branch out, you might not get work, but you find passion in it, you can do that. And I think the there's more value in that than doing it in a healthy way and making my god broken and poor.

James Avramenko: 40:18

Yep. And I think I think the, for me the alternative option and I actually wish this bled more even into not only just the education but into the actual programming and the the the way that the community actually worked. I think, like mentorships apprenticeships, I think we should treat it like a like a like a like a craft right or like a What do they call like a you know, like, like a plumber? You know, your apprentice plumber, right? You know?

Daniel Johnston: 40:43

What? That's part of why I said beyond who you meet? Yes, yes. Your friends while you're there.

James Avramenko: 40:47

Yeah, of course, connections you make

Daniel Johnston: 40:49

people hire you anyway. Exactly. The jobs I got were people I met Well, at Theatre School. were like, I remember that kitty was put out. Exactly. That's it. It's the same walk of life trade.

James Avramenko: 41:00

That's what I was trying to say. I think we should treat it like a trade like learning a trade. Yeah. And I think it's because culturally, we don't respect artists, and we likely never will. And so, you know, when when you establish a culture that D values, it's like, it's like being a server, right? It's like, if you establish a culture that D values, someone's like, intrinsic identity, but also demand their time anytime they want. I mean, think about you know, I mean, I know it's a bit of a cliche argument, but it's like, so what did you do in the dude during the pandemic? Did you read a book? Did you watch a movie? Did you listen to music? Hmm. But you still think artists are lazy, useless. Non needed elements of society? Hmm. You know,

Daniel Johnston: 41:48

if you find value in anything beyond your day to day life that Exactly, exactly. Somebody had to do that, you know, so it's cool. There's no theater work in Canada. So why are we fucking going through this book? Everyone go to film school? And then you can translate your film to theater? Exactly. I'll get paid.

James Avramenko: 42:03

And that's the thing. I think. I think it should be trades. I think it should be. I think it should be rep theatre. Like I think it should be like, there shouldn't be these, like, we do one play for two weeks. And we never do that play again. It should be like, Oh, this works cool. It's gonna be in rotation for a while, you know, that gets longer. What's up, you have to, you have to set a culture and unique patrons exactly doesn't exist here. Well, that's just it. Right. So that's the thing is that it's like, it's a model that I envy out of like Europe, but it doesn't feel possible right now in Canada, and that sucks, you know?

Daniel Johnston: 42:35

But it's right. All those kids who go to theater school, go to summer stock, and it happens, but it doesn't. There's like three of those companies in Canada.

James Avramenko: 42:42

Yeah, exactly. And then they're fucked. And then and then you know, and then and then yeah, inevitably, there's about six to 10 actors in all of Canada who are making some form of living wage. That's about it, you know,

Daniel Johnston: 42:55

as actors or they have to pivot and start to do something else, which they might not be good at. But they're getting paid because they made a name acting but they're not be good directors. They may not

James Avramenko: 43:04

be likely. And I hate to be a dick, too, but it's like they also likely come from money. I it's it they likely already have a net you know it very

Daniel Johnston: 43:14

well could be like it's tough to speculate but like it's tough to stay that devoted to it if you don't have somewhere to fall.

James Avramenko: 43:19

Exactly.

Daniel Johnston: 43:20

This is you're gonna have to get a job in crackly. So yeah, I would say just learn I made that. When I made that decision where I was like, Am I gonna take the shoe? mainus job. Am I gonna work in a restaurant? Yeah, part of it was like, I really like acting. But I don't like it as much as some people I know. Yes. Who? So? A, I'm never gonna grind as hard as they're not a large part of this business is how hard Will you grind? And how much will you give up? Yep. And be? I'm kind of rooting for them over me. Yeah, exactly. Right. Thank you again. I'll never do that.

James Avramenko: 43:53

Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's just it. And so I think if you know, I my advice would be, find, find a mentor and get practical, practical experience, because you're never gonna get practical experience in school. And you're, you're never gonna get better without practical experience. And that's why so many artists stagnate the way they do, because they're never challenged by genuinely doing it. Whereas they're only taught theory and how fucking like like theory is important to a degree to open your mind to think about things but it's not to the root you know, and it's not the it's not the baseline of of it. It's Yeah, you're right. It's a tool of it. it's it's it's not it's not the end game, right, but

Daniel Johnston: 44:34

I just like love hearing your talk about it.

James Avramenko: 44:36

Yeah, fuck theater school. And fuck theatremakers and fuck theater and fuck artists.

Daniel Johnston: 44:43

Well, let's not go let's see, like, I genuinely value all the people I met there and my followers relationships and stuff, but like, goddamn

James Avramenko: 44:56

Yeah, big time. So, this is always my favorite question of the show. And it always inevitably, Will. You know, I'd like to say it, it'll never be remind me of something I forgotten or it'll like paint a new color to something I cherish. You know, it's, it's. And so I'm really curious what your most vivid memory of our friendship is.

Daniel Johnston: 45:28

My grandfather gave me a sack of clothes. That's gotta be I mean, I thought about that. And I was like, What a night. What a night. We used to have sing songs in Brian nothings room. Yeah, is a delightful piano player. And we night we had a couple beverages. Oh, yeah. And we were having to sing along. And then we just started freestyle improving overtop of it. And you had just returned from your grandfather's with literally a garbage bag full of old man clothes. Yep. And so we were taking turns going through it and putting on items, while we sang this loop over top. And describe the items of clothing. And you had to be there. I totally understand. But literally, it was just my grandfather gave me some purple pants. Some purple pants as we pulled stuff out of this bag. And we were just the right amount of drunk younger and just having so much fun. Yeah. And we laugh. And then you slapped my now wife in the face?

James Avramenko: 46:39

I did.

Daniel Johnston: 46:40

Yeah. Yeah. She told me to mention that specifically.

James Avramenko: 46:45

I have no memory of that.

Daniel Johnston: 46:47

I bet you don't. And now that I have a toddler, I understand you were just excited. He hits me when he gets fired up.

James Avramenko: 46:54

Look, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. So you know, ADHD. So it's a it's it's not my fault. It's just the shape of my brain.

Daniel Johnston: 47:03

I think this is the part where you just say I'm so sorry.

James Avramenko: 47:06

Jessica. I'm so sorry.

Daniel Johnston: 47:10

Okay, now we can move on. It's got been holding on to it since then.

James Avramenko: 47:14

Wow. That's my bad entirely.

Daniel Johnston: 47:19

But yes, that we set we we had some downtime there. Everybody's going through the rough times. But we lifted each other up. And yeah, we really had some really, really good times as well. Yeah. sticks with me now.

James Avramenko: 47:30

Man. That whole year was real. Like, you know, it sucked. And it was like, I was going through some fucking dark shit. And at the same time, too. It's not that I wouldn't change anything, but like, I am probably alive because of, you know, like, because of where I was living and what was going on and how I was being sort of like, protected. Yeah. So yeah, it's Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I don't know if I have any singular moment. Got that fucking song. Oh, my God. But I also remember you know what I you know, the other one I remember is the day we decided to go play basketball and we all put on your jerseys. Everyone put on different shirts to see.

Daniel Johnston: 48:14

Yeah, I have a collection of jerseys, mostly basketball. So we all jersey it up. And I there's a couple of great photos from that there was a basketball court like at the elementary school down the street. It's like a beautiful summer day. Just a dream about get some drinks with us. We were just like, carefree that day. It was a nice, yeah.

James Avramenko: 48:33

And I remember I remember my first and only slam dunk was that day, and I was smoking a cigarette. I had a cigarette in my head in my mouth. And I went up and I and I didn't you know, there's a technique to slam slam dunk gig and I don't have that technique. And so when I did it, I slammed it in and the ball came straight down on my face.

Daniel Johnston: 48:51

I'd also like to preface that this was an eight foot hoop not a 10 foot.

James Avramenko: 48:54

Oh yeah, no. No, no, I kind of just had to reach up and do it.

Daniel Johnston: 49:00

You know? made it sound like you're just like mostly slam dunk. I just I was feeling it. I was doing lumber. I don't know

James Avramenko: 49:08

this was this is a playground hoop. This was not Yeah, yeah. But But yeah, it just came right down on my face smashed cigarette into my face. And I was like, I'm done playing basketball for the day.

Daniel Johnston: 49:23

I'm gonna sit on the side. I'm gonna watch you guys play.

James Avramenko: 49:25

I'm good. I'm good. I'm gonna have another smoke.

Daniel Johnston: 49:28

Fresh Start to crack this Pacific Pilsner. If you could only drink one thing for the rest of your life, what are you choosing?

James Avramenko: 50:08

Jesus Christ? That's a really hard question, man. Um, I mean, I feel like

Daniel Johnston: 50:16

I feel like practocalities aside, okay, okay, we're not. Let's let's eliminate. Oh, it's obviously water. Yeah. Get it. Okay. practicalities aside.

James Avramenko: 50:27

Wow. There's one thing I feel so called out because I was literally about to start.

Daniel Johnston: 50:31

I knew you were, I saw your face and I was like, have fun with it loser.

James Avramenko: 50:37

Um, well, look, if I if I could practicalities aside if I was going to survive. Can it be a mixed drink? Like, can I always get I just always be drinking old fashions?

Daniel Johnston: 50:49

Absolutely.

James Avramenko: 50:49

my god. Imagine? Imagine.

Daniel Johnston: 50:53

That's your mixture of choice.

James Avramenko: 50:55

That's what makes a good choice. Oh, I love a good old fashioned. Holy fuck. I love an old fashioned.

Daniel Johnston: 50:59

You would.

James Avramenko: 51:01

Well, uh, you know,

Daniel Johnston: 51:03

that's my old my old bar manager. bartender guy just judging you tell you.

James Avramenko: 51:09

What's wrong with an old fashioned?

Daniel Johnston: 51:10

It takes eight minutes to make properly.

James Avramenko: 51:14

Okay, that's true. But it's a process. It's such an adventure. It's such an adventure to watch someone, especially somebody who's doing it. Well. It's like, wow, that's an adventure, you know, but

Daniel Johnston: 51:24

a well made Old fashion is a delight.

James Avramenko: 51:27

And I also I like to imagine how like, how rambunctious I'd be. If I was like, mid afternoon, and I went all I drank all day. If I drink the amount of water that I drink in a day of old fashioned imagining me at 2pm Well, man,

Daniel Johnston: 51:46

like you just humblebrag how much water you drink. I'm very hydrated.

James Avramenko: 51:50

I look I'm medicated. I'm on stimulants. I get dehydrated. Okay, I have to do otherwise again. brutal, dry most

Daniel Johnston: 52:01

reasonable,

James Avramenko: 52:01

right? You know, what about you? What would you choose?

Daniel Johnston: 52:05

Water?

James Avramenko: 52:06

You mother fucker.

Daniel Johnston: 52:09

Well, I'd probably choose like, a wine. so versatile. There's so many styles. So many. Good choice.

James Avramenko: 52:16

That's a way better choice. I want to change mine. I choose wine. Now, would you do white or red though?

Daniel Johnston: 52:25

I just said why it could be any. I didn't say have this specific type of one. Oh man. That's rare. You get what you get Rosie, you get natural wine. You get sparkling wine.

James Avramenko: 52:36

You technically get champagne.

Daniel Johnston: 52:39

I said sparkling.

James Avramenko: 52:42

Fucking hell I'm sorry.

Daniel Johnston: 52:44

For looking at fortified wine. You can have Sherry

James Avramenko: 52:48

and have port that dessert wines and that like that? Nice wine.

Daniel Johnston: 52:52

Get it all. So enjoy your old fashions bro.

James Avramenko: 53:00

I fucked up. I fucked up that question. I you know, I you asked it and I panicked. I was the first thing that came to mind

Daniel Johnston: 53:08

It was a trap. It was a trap. It felt like it felt I felt like I took water away.

James Avramenko: 53:14

Now he's gonna panic. You know, God, even just today, we were starting the interview and you have to go room to room with masks on you can only have them off in certain places. We're in a funny scenario. Um, you know, things seem to be shifting, but it's still gonna be while it's the end, and it's not going to be normal. In fact, part of me hopes it doesn't go back to normal in a lot of ways. Like I hope we I hope we learned some things from this and we don't just like, can't wait to get back to being dicks, right? Get to the new normal. Right? You know, like, I really hope people will cover their mouths when they cough. I hope they'll wash their hands when they poo in public and, you know, certain behavioral shifts, I hope we adopt. But that's all down the line. And we're in a situation where we don't know when that's coming. And so we have to hold on to our connections and our friendships any way we can. And I wonder what you are going to try to do for yourself and also what you may sort of recommend others to try in order to remain a good connected friend in 2021. And then however long this shit continues to last.

Daniel Johnston: 54:38

This is a difficult question for me because objectively by classic brand standards, I'm not a good friend. Like I don't check in. I rarely initiate plans like I'm not that person. Which goes back to my like talking about self care and taking care of yourself and you know that, you know the Spoon Theory. Right? So I ascribe to that kind of in my dealing with my anxiety and depression, so, if I only have X amount of spoons, friendship is one that I forego as the initiator, right. But without hesitation, if we're friends, I'll give you the shirt off my back, or my last dollar, like, I'm that type of person. So, I think it's just understanding your relationships with specific people and how your friendship works. You're not asking too much of them, and just being okay with letting them be themselves. And if you're the person who needs to be in touch with someone, be in touch with them. Yeah, understanding that, you're asking something of someone. And if they respond, then that's great. And if they don't respond, you can't take it personally. You can't take it as a personal slight, it's that person managing your own life, right. And if you really value that person, and you see yourself in that person, you'll understand that they also value you. And they're sharing what they can. And they'll give you what ever they have necessary. But if it's important, or you really need something, like true friends, won't hesitate, and it'll be there. And it's not a big deal. That's when issues should arise, right? If you're not sure about your friendship with someone because they don't respond to your text fast enough, like you're talking about with Jane is like, yeah, that's not, you don't really have that good of a friendship. Because you don't trust that person. That's something that I value to them, right.

James Avramenko: 56:38

Yeah, that's something I think about a lot about the idea of sort of, like, you know, yet you nailed it, where it's this idea of like, if you're unsure about those kinds of questions, then and this is okay. Like, these aren't unhealthy questions. But like, I think you're actually asking a deeper question about that connection, then you may even realize it's almost like you're kind of telling yourself accidentally, right,

Daniel Johnston: 56:59

well, then being forthright, right, that's exactly what should be based in his honesty and truthfulness with the people that you can be right. Yes, other people who are surface level friends, or you don't really need to worry about it anyway. Yeah. Because they don't really affect your bottom line. Because if they weren't in your life, you might be like, I really miss that person that would cool person, but like, on a day to day level, it doesn't really matter. But the people that really care about you, and that you really care about it, it's gonna be copacetic. Either way, right? Yeah. Because the things that are important though, things that you need from them, and that they need from you, you have an understanding of and you'll share. And then you just build on that. But mostly, it's just, you got to take care of yourself, and whatever you're doing and your job and you have a full time job. And I have a wife and I have two kids, and I don't have a lot of time in my day to do other things. Yeah. And I would love to share what I have. But I only have so much, right? Yeah. Well, that's just my really good friends understand.

James Avramenko: 58:00

Yes. Well, and that's just too and I think that like, yeah, I think allowing yourself to it's almost like allowing yourself to be used up, if you will, you know, like with this idea of like, yeah, you only have so much to give. And so if you're at that point where you have nothing else to give, because it starts with you cutting yourself off in a way, right? Like, like, you know, like you and if you want to reach out to somebody, that's all fine and good. But you sort of have to be prepared for that. Because like you say, and I agree wholeheartedly, like you're now initiating something that you're giving, and also, in a way expecting something in return. And so you have to be ready for what you get back to not necessarily be what you expect.

Daniel Johnston: 58:45

But and like I really appreciate when people reach out to me, because that's the type of people they are and I feel loved. And I feel valued, because people are like, hey, do you want to wanting to play golf this weekend? Or do you want to have an outside drink on Friday or whatever, right? I feel really bad. Because a lot of the time I say no, because either I don't have time. Yeah, or don't have the energy. But I still value that they reached out because that's the type of person they are. But we understand each other. I feel bad, but they don't feel bad. And I know I can be honest in that, right. But also when you're dealing with this, and you're dealing with those mental issues as you're like, is this a line where I don't actually have any energy to give? Yeah. Or am I just being lazy. It's easier not to write. So to be a good friend, you have to be able to walk that line and push through that curtain sometimes really, like my first instinct is say no, because I don't feel like it. Yeah, but I know once I do it, I'm really going to enjoy myself and appreciate it, man. So you can do that for your good friend three. Like I didn't want to come hang out with you. And it has nothing to do with you. Yeah, but I'm really glad I'm here.

James Avramenko: 59:54

Yeah. And you make sure that they know it. You make sure when you show up you say I didn't want to come

Daniel Johnston: 1:00:03

That's after the first drink.

James Avramenko: 1:00:05

I gotta be honest with you, Dan, I didn't want to do this, but, but here I am. And you know what turns out, it's fine.

Daniel Johnston: 1:00:12

You and I both know that guilt is a huge part of healthy friendship.

James Avramenko: 1:00:18

Then speaking of guilt, I do hate to do this, but we do need to wrap up the conversation and get on to the last little bit of the show. But um, you know, before we do I just, you know, man,

Daniel Johnston: 1:00:33

I really appreciate you, man, buddy. I really appreciate that. Dude, you are and I really appreciate your commitment to art in your writing and your relationship and sharing yourself out here like this, man, I read See, I did there. I got ahead.

James Avramenko: 1:00:48

And you're maki g me feel, you know, like, I ju t like, I love you, Dan, I real y do. And I missed the fuck out f you, you know, and like, I ju t like, I feel so lucky not only to have had the friendship that we have had to have the frie dship that we do have. I'm so g ateful to your why your wife s like, active Instagram post ng, I'm so grateful for it to g t to like, watch your fami y grow and grow up. And and like It's so fucking magic. Like your whole family is just magi , you know, and, and I just I adore you. And I'm just like yeah, you're one of those frie ds that I'm just like, when we d get to talk it just like it l aves me feeling like, simu taneously so much better abou the world. And then also like like, tired, you know, like but in like the best kind of l ke, it feels like after a ther py session tired where it's like it just feels like, it feel good. And it feels like some hing's been sort of like, work d out,

Daniel Johnston: 1:01:50

That that's l ke the nicest thing you cou d say to me. Genuinely, li e, ever since I was a teenage , like, I've taken it upon mysel to like, share other people' stuff. And I do it because I ike doing it. Yeah. I feel ike that's how I can contribut man ships and relationships and stuff. And like, I want ou to feel that way. And I fe l the same way about you. An that's why we're honest with e ch other and we share it righ . And that's, that's really really nice man. And to say th t about my family is you know, aving children Yeah. And los ng touch with people and re onnecting. It's funny because it's the kind of thing where y u like, I really want you to h ng out with my kids. I swear they're cool. With the sound so tupid without having kids. eah, and I don't mean to be th t guy. But like, you won't get it to have them. But like, the people that you value and you love and you you want to share with like, they're the biggest p rt of my life, my wife and my c ildren, or my whole world, specially independent. bsolutely. Like, when you have the kind of friends you w nt to share that with. Yeah, r ght. And I put you in that categ ry. It's like, I really apprec ate it.

James Avramenko: 1:03:01

Yeah. Dan, I love you. I'm so grateful for it. I'm just so grateful. Like and just like your, your continued support of you know, my writing and how you've always been such a champion for my poetry and it's just like it means the world to me, you know, and like it really it really yeah, I I'm just grateful every day.

Daniel Johnston: 1:03:23

Keep doing it, buddy.

James Avramenko: 1:03:24

Yeah, but on that note, I have to pull up your Facebook. I'm really sorry about this,

Daniel Johnston: 1:03:30

Right befo e you do this. I reviewed our riendship to make sure we were 't going to miss anything. Yeah And it's almost excl sively it's one photo which is a death promo. It's almost excl sively happy birthdays. Ther 's one ticklish cage refe ee. I'm ticklish Nicolas Cage, I m trying to watch a snuff f

Unknown: 1:03:55

And then it's just a link to key and peels East West College. That's our relationship.aj r j Xj back slashing fourth and fifth as you can delete us man.

James Avramenko: 1:04:10

Oh my god, Daniel Johnston. We are no longer Facebook friends

Daniel Johnston: 1:04:20

About time only because Facebook's like super evil and we shouldn't have it anyway. Well, it's awful.

James Avramenko: 1:04:28

This is an exhausting show to have to maintain. And that's it. Thank you Once more, Dan for coming on the show. I love you and I can't wait for the day I can walk into your brewery and ask when you're going to make some real decisions with your life. As always, if you like the show, please let your friends know rate the episodes share the links tell everyone you noticed subscribe to friend lists, doing what I can on a very limited limited budget but I need your help spread the word on friendless, it does sometimes feel like if something isn't being made in Toronto, it holds no value in Canada. So I'd ask that you prove them wrong and say it loud and clear with me. Fuck Toronto. I mean, a city that helps elect two forts and still considers itself the cultural epicenter of a country. No, thank you. Fuck that noise. Okay, I'm sorry, gadget but be sure to follow friendless on all the usual social media platforms. You can find me at friendless pod, you can sign up for the monthly newsletter through the link in this episode's show notes. It is a ton of fun. I love writing it and I love all the really great responses that I've been getting from readers, you are all my favorite. But anyway, that's it for me. So I will sign off with a wish that you have a great week or as great a week as possible. And I hope to see you back here next time. But we will leave that to then because that is then this is now. So for now, I'll just say I love you and I will catch you soon. Foreign safety my sweeties