Bob Orlando

James Avramenko: 0:18

Oh my sweetings It is me, your old pal James Avramenko back again with another brand new episode of friendless The only podcast about how to lose all your Facebook friends one hour at a time. This week, I unfriend my very special guest Bob Orlando. Bob is a project manager for a company that produces 3d scanners and printers for the prosthetics and orthotics industry, which is an endlessly more interesting job than what my layman words been managed to describe. He is also a keystone member of my long lost Vancouver poker crew who I love and miss dearly. Bob and I talk about the intimidation factor of ghost towns, 3d printing prosthetics, vegetarian pep talks, taking the blame for house parties at other people's houses, projecting insecurities onto Dungeons and Dragons characters and so much more. As always, there is some fun news about Friendless that I'm withholding until the end of the episode, so be sure to stick around for that. But as always, that is then and this is now. So for now, I will recommend you lean back. get comfy and enjoy my conversation with Bob the Builder Orlando, here on friendless. This week on friendless, I have a very illustrious a legendary friend if you will. One who comes with Mystique and gravitas.

Bob Orlando: 1:49

I Think you're overselling it James

James Avramenko: 1:52

the one and only Bob the Builder Bob Orlando. How the hell are you my guy?

Bob Orlando: 1:57

I'm doing good. Doing good. As good as you can in quarantine times.

James Avramenko: 2:01

Yeah. Now you're you're settled in Vancouver. Right?

Bob Orlando: 2:05

I am. We're right downtown and one of them high rises.

James Avramenko: 2:09

Yeah. Now are you still in that same apartment that I that one time you and I played video games. And I was so intimidated by the whole like, not only just the apartment, but like the whole community that you live in?

Bob Orlando: 2:22

Yeah, yeah, we're still in that one. I think I've lived in two apartments downtown. One of them was like, right at like Granville and Nelson ish. But now we're down in, in Cole harbour. So I think that was the one that you came to visit us in.

James Avramenko: 2:39

And they're just like, those places are so crazy. Because, you know, when you're walking downtown, everything becomes that weird sort of like, it's just like faceless blank buildings. And you have no idea if it's an office or an apartment or some weird converted loft, or you know, whatever it is, and then you and then you go inside and it's like, it's these weird little microworlds.

Bob Orlando: 3:01

Yeah, totally. And it's like, the other thing that's crazy about down around here is like we're right next to the Financial District, which I feel like when you're walking around this area on a weekend, you're like, did I enter into a ghost town like, who closes a subway on a Saturday?

James Avramenko: 3:17

For real, though? You know, I had that experience all the time in Calgary in it because basically, I mean, all of downtown is basically the financial district of Calgary. Right. And, and yeah, man, Friday at 5pm. It's like, all you see is tumbleweeds?

Bob Orlando: 3:36

Yeah, I've literally skateboarded down like Georgia Street, or like Pender Street. There's no traffic. There's no people around. Just empty.

James Avramenko: 3:45

Yeah. Now what are you from Vancouver originally? Or?

Bob Orlando: 3:50

Oh, yeah, no, we're from Vancouver. I think I was born even in St. Paul's in downtown. I might have been born in Lions Gate over in North Bend. But yeah, one of those two and lived here my whole life aside from a stint down in Oregon for a year and a half.

James Avramenko: 4:07

What would take you down there.

Bob Orlando: 4:09

So it was my first job out of university. So I just finished my degree and I, you know, did all the doing my classes, doing my assignments for the most part and like, was doing a lot of tutoring, and was coming up to graduation and realized, Hey, I haven't thought about you know, finding a job, like doing the thing that I'm doing this whole school for. But luckily, in one of my in one of my tutoring sessions, this kid came up to me and said, hey, I've been telling my dad about you. He wants to meet you see if he has a job for you. So they had me for an interview. I flew down to Oregon for a week for a week long interview and did a little project and they were like sure we'll hire you. And then they gave me an outrageous paycheck because they didn't know how Engineers get paid in Canada, they were paying me like their salaries. So I couldn't really say no, and went down for a little while.

James Avramenko: 5:08

Do they get paid more there?

Bob Orlando: 5:13

I don't really know. Based on the salary they gave me, I think they make more. At least in in my field. So, so yeah, I went down. But the Yeah, the work just it wasn't for me, the town was pretty cool. And like the workplace was chill, but I just wasn't happy there. So left and came back.

James Avramenko: 5:35

So what is it? What is it that you do? Exactly? And how much of that? Can you talk about? Because I know you're, you're just riddled riddled with NDA, but

Bob Orlando: 5:45

So what we do, the company I work for uh Vorum, we make a 3d design and manufacturing system for the prosthetics and orthotics industry. So what I do, they're like, we kind of have a suite of 3d scanners, design software, and milling machines, and printers kind of thing, like fabrication equipment. So my role there, for the most part is once we make a sale to a new customer, I am the main project manager of coordinating them getting all of their equipment, delivering their training, or coordinating their training, we've got a couple other engineers on staff that deliver the training, and deliver the installation and then kind of help them goal set on what they want to do with the system as well.

James Avramenko: 6:27

So the idea is like, do you do the printing yourselves? Or do you more like make the printer that then other people use to print? Is that? Is that what goes on?

Bob Orlando: 6:37

Yeah, for the majority? No, we don't we don't make any orthotic or prosthetic devices in house. We don't have any like people in house that are certified prosthetists orthotists. So we will we make the equipment that the prosthetists and orthotists use to make the devices for their patients?

James Avramenko: 6:57

Wow. That's an incredible. What do you call that? It's like, it's almost like a, a hinge of these, like different areas of society that you wouldn't necessarily sort of pieced together. And I wonder, what, what, what got you there? Like, how did you get into? How did you get involved in that?

Bob Orlando: 7:17

Well, I'm like any other one, I just kind of applied for the job that was available on indeed. So I had just come back, I just came back from Oregon, I, you know, was living in my parents basement. And was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next, had enough savings to kind of spend a few months figuring that out. And when I thought back on my previous job experiences, the one that was that I enjoyed the most or look back most fondly on was working in the MRI lab at BC Children's Hospital. So while I was there, we were like that I was seeing how the work I was doing was benefiting the lives of the children coming into the hospital. So I really wanted to do something that merged my engineering degree with healthcare. So I was really focused on finding that intersection. And then this company popped up and applied and got hired. And that was a bit over nine years ago now.

James Avramenko: 8:15

Wow, man, the dream of having a job for nine years in a row that is incredible. Like it's such a you know, it's I you always see those really like passive aggressive. Well, maybe you don't, maybe I see because I'm constantly getting new jobs. But I always see this advice that I always take fairly passive aggressively of people being like, hiring people don't want to see a bunch of one year credits, they want to see more than a year and I'm like, buddy, if I could, I would believe me. I don't want to work there for only a year, right? Yeah.

Bob Orlando: 8:55

Yeah, no, it's definitely tough. But like, you know, to have a bunch of one or two year things, and then to go in somewhere that that wants you for, you know, to stick around for your 10 years. They'll definitely see it as a red flag for sure. But yeah, it's a hard thing to talk around. And it's also like just it, I think, for you like you kept moving cities to cities. So it's, yeah, at least in pre COVID times, it was hard to stay in the same. Same job over that.

James Avramenko: 9:24

Exactly, exactly. That's beautiful, though. So so you know, you're you're working there. I guess then that means you were already working there by the time we met. And I wonder or probably like, maybe just starting kind of thing.

Bob Orlando: 9:39

Yeah, I think I was just starting

James Avramenko: 9:40

now when we, when we started setting up this interview. I started trying to wrack my brain and to figure out if there was a time I could pinpoint and I and I'll be honest, I can't. And so I'm actually really curious if you can help me out with this, if you remember how we met

Bob Orlando: 9:58

I think Like I also can't pinpoint the exact time. But I think we met a playing poker at Mark's old apartment off of astronomically.

James Avramenko: 10:10

Definitely I lived I lived literally behind him in the alley. I was like across the alley from him there.

Bob Orlando: 10:16

For someone that lived across the alley, you didn't come very often,

James Avramenko: 10:20

buddy, I was in a, let's just say I was in a different living situation than I was, you know, a few years later, but there was other that let's call the mitigating factors. But, but no, I yeah, no, I, it's always one of those things where it's like you. You don't realize how how I keep on seeing you. I didn't realize how bad of a friend I was being until in retrospect, until like, I couldn't be, you know, until I couldn't come over. You know what I mean? And then I was like, Oh, fuck, yeah, Why wasn't I just over there every day? What the fuck was I think, uh, you know, those poker nights especially were so fun though. Those they were they were such a good they were such a good mix, because they were like, everybody had a job, you know? So it wasn't like, it wasn't like back in, in university Where, where? It was more about just drinking that about play poker. And then, and then. But yeah, Mark's place was such a blast. And now now you you've met that whole group through another Bensler Am I right?

Bob Orlando: 11:28

Yeah. I met him through Luke. So Luke is my oldest friend. So when, when my parents separated when I was like five or so we, we we moved over to like Vancouver proper with my mom in tickets. And I met Luke on my first day into the new school. So I kind of joined Carnarvon Elementary School in kindergarten, a few months into the school year, and Luke was my assigned buddy to like show me

James Avramenko: 12:03

Man jackpot that that's called winning the lottery right there.

Bob Orlando: 12:08

Yeah. I never bought a lottery ticket after I'm like, Yeah, I've hit the jackpot.

James Avramenko: 12:16

Man, Luke Bensler. What a man.

Bob Orlando: 12:20

A legend. He's the one that gets the legend in the gravitas intro. Not me.

James Avramenko: 12:24

That's true. That's very true. Now now. Yeah, see, I always heard about you in passing, because we would just for what felt like ages, I would just hear about Luke's friend Bob, I would hear about Bob the Builder. But you would never like I don't think you ever came to like Victoria or any of those kinds of parties or anything like that. Or, and if you did, like we just never crossed over. Yeah, so it wasn't until years and years later. That's why I thought maybe you like crossover with work or something like that. But

Bob Orlando: 12:56

no, no, I, I was I came over to Victoria one weekend. Just to like, hang out with Luke. I was recently separated with an ex girlfriend and just wanting to have my buddies around. So came over for the weekend. And that's where I met most of the people. Like Yeah, Brady there. Well, no, I knew Brady from before, but like, met a bunch of the people there.

James Avramenko: 13:17

I think I remember that weekend. I was and I wasn't around for some weekend. one reason or another. But it's funny. I think that that legend or that weekend lived in legend about time, Bob came to Victoria. Yeah,

Bob Orlando: 13:31

there was I must have just been a catalyst because there are so many stories out of that weekend. Yeah, like that. I was not around for but just happened like on the same weekend that I came. So they all got tied to the that's the weekend that Bob came to visit?

James Avramenko: 13:47

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know that that was very much the thing that that group of friends did, which is that they would, they would use somebody as an excuse for their bad behavior. I don't know if you've ever heard the stories but I, according to to Brady and Mark and Luke and all the roommates of the Mayfair house. I was the bad friend who was bringing alcohol and drugs over to the house. They didn't want it but but I was leaving all my alcohol and marijuana all over the house. So anytime their parents would come over, they'd be like, Oh, that's James's.

Bob Orlando: 14:29

So you just have the worst reputation among the parents.

James Avramenko: 14:32

Well, you know, what's funny is that years later, I met all you know, I met Ernst that I met met met Luke's dad and everything. And they all just were like, oh, you're James and like, Ernst was literally like, I'm really sorry. You have such bad friends.

Bob Orlando: 14:48

They saw right through it the entire time.

James Avramenko: 14:49

Of course, they're not idiots. They're, you know, they, they knew what was happening. They just like couldn't be bothered, because like, I wasn't around, so they just were like, okay, yeah, sure. It's James. I'm sure.

Bob Orlando: 15:00

Yeah, yeah.

James Avramenko: 15:03

fucking bastards.

Bob Orlando: 15:11

What are your, like levels or tiers of friendship? And how do you define those? And then the follow up question is what makes someone go up or down a level in your books?

James Avramenko: 15:23

that's a really good. That's a really good question. And it's something that I actually I think about a lot, but still have no real definitive answers for, you know? Because it's almost like, it's like, people who I, oh, man, how do I say this? It's almost like, I wish everybody could be sort of at the same tier. Yeah, I wish I could hold everybody at the same tier. And in some ways, I kind of do, because I just like, I just like, people who are nice to be, and more so not nice, kind. I like kindness, you know? And I like understanding and empathy. And so people who give me that, you know, give me You know, that's my choice.

Bob Orlando: 16:04

But, you know, like, people who show up in that way for you

James Avramenko: 16:07

exactly. Like, I, it's very hard for me to forget that stuff. You know, I'm actually always surprised by what people you know, people will be like, do you remember this? And they'll be like, Of course I do. Right? You know, like, like, so often, they'll almost be like, they'll have held on to a story about us. And they'll sort of be like, you know, there'll be tentative, almost. And it's like, that's the only thing I remember about you. But that's a digression, um, in terms of like, tears, I guess I would rank it as, like, if I had to rake it would be like, people who I can, like, comfortably cry in front of, and then people who will, like I can trust to buy me a round of beer, and, and then everybody else who I like, you know, and then there's, and then there's, you know, strangers, those are like, and then like in terms of coming up and down. That's a tough one, right? Because it's like I've and it's actually kind of a root of this show, in general is that like, I haven't always been a good friend. And I know that. And I know that I have lost lots of friendships, sometimes through the actions of the other person, and sometimes to the actions of myself, and then sometimes through a mishmash of both. And so I know, I haven't always been a good friend, and I'm trying to unpack what that means. Right? And. And so, in the past, what has happened, when somebody has come up and down has just been like, the degree of the fight, if you will. I not somebody who is like, uncomfortable by fighting with a friend, I don't think it's a problem to have problems with your friends. And I think I think you should actually have friends who do challenge you, and who do call you on your bullshit and who do hold you accountable. Right. But but in a healthy capacity, not in a mean spirited, just put you down and hold you down way. Right. And that's, that's where the difference has come has been when somebody, if somebody is holding me accountable, it's one thing, but if somebody is unfairly doing that, that's a whole other process. And those are the people who I'm like, Nah, I have no time for that shit. You're not my fucking Savior. You're not my dad, like, I've you know, so those are the those are the times when somebody can go down. And then conversely, on the flip side, I think that people go up when, either when they demonstrate like vulnerability to me, or when they allow me to be vulnerable to them without, like, judgment or without sort of fear of, because I think I think, I mean, I'm sure this is true for everyone. But I can only speak from my experience. So I speak from a you know, assist white, straight man. It can be really hard to be vulnerable around people sometimes. And so if somebody allows me to be vulnerable in front of them, and it doesn't get us, you know, weaponized, right? Yeah. Because sometimes they can use it as shame and all those things. Right. And so, if they don't weaponize it, then that's a that's a that's a pretty good, pretty good sign,

Bob Orlando: 19:08

right? Yeah. Yeah. When you meet someone, what level do they start on? Do you assume that they're like, they're all in?

James Avramenko: 19:15

Yeah, I start high, I'm somebody who will start high and wait for someone to show me I'm wrong. It's but then it's really hard to get the trust back. Like, I'll sort of I'll start implicitly trusting and believing in the goodness of the person and and can't wait for them to prove me right. Like, I'm not like waiting for them to drop the ball. But as soon as they do, it falls, that ball falls fast, you know, and then it's pretty hard to get it back up. It's one of those like, it's a squash ball, you know, get it going, but as soon as it hits the ground, you're fucked.

Bob Orlando: 19:56

Yeah, I was. So for those listeners that don't know Jimmy and I are pretty big nerds and play d&d pretty regularly. You we do so I was I'm curious, like, where that where this stemmed from is from the character that you play with our group, Burgell, Burgell, and whenever he meets any stranger, he's like, Hi, my name is Burgell What's your name? And then like learns about them in the next person they meet? Have you met my new best friend? Like you're immediately best friends with whoever you meet. And I'm like, I wonder how much of this is like related to exactly how James is how he wishes he was? Or like, how he used to be and then he was hurt too many times.

James Avramenko: 20:35

You know what, I think it's all three of those. I think that's a phenomenal that's actually at that makes me feel very seen. And I really appreciate that. That's actually very sweet. What's a, you know, assessment of me, right? Because I think it's actually all three. It's like, I like giving trust. I I wish I could give it more. And then also, I don't as much as I wish I would, because there have been times when I've been pretty severely burned by by it in the past, you know, so yeah. But also Burgell is just the fucking best. I just love that guy just so much

Bob Orlando: 21:13

He's great.

James Avramenko: 21:15

He's a little he's a little manic like I've yet to I you know, he's already level 14. And I have yet to actually figure out truly where his character lies. But yeah.

Bob Orlando: 21:27

I mean, isn't that just the truth of the default truth of humanity?

James Avramenko: 21:32

That's exactly it. You know, it context is king, right? Yeah, that's

Bob Orlando: 21:35

Yeah. I'm level 34. I don't know where my truth lies.

James Avramenko: 21:45

How do you define friendship?

Bob Orlando: 22:14

Yeah, I, I kind of, you know, my question kind of, is based on what how I define friendship, which is like, there are, to me, there are several layers or levels of friendship. And there's like layers within those levels. And you can have some friends that you are friends with them for a specific, like type of friendship and others that you're friends with another type of friendship, whether like to your levels, like whether it's getting around a beer at the bar, or just like breaking down crying in front of them. And I think Yeah, you know, when you think about friendships, like the closest friends are ones you can do everything with. And there's no judgment on either side, there is compassion, there's empathy, and they'll call you out when you're wrong. They'll challenge you on those things. But I don't think it's necessarily bad to be like a tertiary friend or a secondary friend, like in that in that capacity. Like, if, if all of my friends were my closest friends, I wouldn't have time to do anything. Like, you've got to have like, you've got to have some expectations, right?

James Avramenko: 23:19

That's exactly right. And that's, and that's something that I struggle with. And yet also that I pretty actively accept and try to sort of amplify is like, it's not a bad thing to be tertiary like you say, right? I, it just means you're a different slice of pie, you know,

Bob Orlando: 23:36

pumpkin pies, good. pecan pie. Sometimes, I don't always buy but every now and then it can be a good thing.

James Avramenko: 23:44

Every once in a while. I'm like, you know what, actually, I think I'd like a key lime. Like,

Bob Orlando: 23:49

that doesn't come around all the time. Usually, it's just one weekend in the summer, but when it does, it's a great time.

James Avramenko: 23:55

That weekend rules.

Bob Orlando: 23:57

Yeah. So So I think there's like, there's no one definition of friendship, there's like, a bunch of different definitions. And it's totally great to have different people in all different definitions. To just like, exists with them in other ways. So like, I think the main thing, if you consider someone a friend, like in any of those levels, rather than an acquaintance, it's, it's about just, you know, being present with them, in whatever level you're going to be present with them. And so if I have just an acquaintance, I'll, you know, I will interact with them a little bit and then kind of go on on my day, but I'm not really Virgil level of getting into all of their deepest, darkest secrets, like in the first few seconds that I meet them.

James Avramenko: 24:46

Well, and that's something too and I think that that's a really healthy and actually really important element of it to keep in mind is that you don't have to over friend everyone, right like you can keep it out. And you can, you know, you can just be kind, right you don't you don't have to be friends, you can just be kind to people. Yeah, exactly there. Yeah.

Bob Orlando: 25:23

How do you wish you showed up better for your friends? And how do you wish your friends showed up better for you?

James Avramenko: 25:50

Oooo

Bob Orlando: 25:52

I don't know if you want to get that deep in this podcast? But

James Avramenko: 25:54

you well know, you know what? That's a really good question. And again, it is something that I think about, and yet I have no real definitive answers because I think you know, you know, I started a new I got a new therapist recently, and we're doing a lot of work sort of unpacking my, my trigger cycles and sort of internalized feelings and stuff like that. And so, for me, it's, it's, it's less about what a friend can or can't do for me and more about what I can or can't do for myself, and what I need to clock in myself. Because I think that I have in the past surrounded myself with people who are who are feeding into a behavior cycle that I no longer want to participate in. And, and it's why, you know, I mean, without, you know, without going into any detail whatsoever, but it's like, it's why I'm not friends with people who my friends remain friends with, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, it's because it's not about, you know, a to b, it's about me to see, you know, and so it's, it's, there's, you know, there's individual stuff there that I don't need my friends to be participating in, if that makes sense, right. But then in terms of like, myself, you know, what I wish I was better at is just like, remembering to do stuff. I'm, I'm really, I have basically no executive function, and basically no object permanence. Like I just, if it if I'm not looking at it, it basically doesn't exist to me, except in the sort of like miasma of my nostalgia and memories, you know, and like, my sort of, like, my long ago memories. And, and I just want to be better at. I want to be better at remembering to text and better at remembering to check in and better at remembering to, to one on one interface. Yeah. Something that I'm so grateful that you did recently is just odd little Facebook message that then eventually cascaded into getting you on the show, you know, and like, but all it was, was you just saying, Hey, you know, and like, and I'm just so like, deeply grateful for that. And I wish I had the, it really, it feels like for me, it feels like it comes down to the courage for it, right? Because I don't, I don't always feel brave enough to message somebody who I'm thinking of. I don't have any number of internalized shame cycles. And I guess on the flip side to I guess that's what I wish, you know, if a friend is listening to this and wondering what they can do nice for me. Thanks. You're, you're you're a little sweetie. And I love you. But, but, you know, yeah, I love a good I love a good message. I love a good Hey, how are you? Let's talk for 10 you know, 10 text messages, and then, uh, Peters out and we don't talk about it. Like, I love that stuff. Who cares? Right, you know, I don't need like a nice, like, I don't need like a well, good night. You know, it's like, if you're if you got something to do, just don't answer me. You know.

Bob Orlando: 28:52

That's the beauty of the text messages. You just come back when you can. And sometimes that happens to be two and a half years later, and then you're like, Oh, this check out this conversation we had a couple years ago. That's a doozy.

James Avramenko: 29:03

Exactly. And it happens to me all the time where I'm like, Oh, shit, I didn't write back to them did it four years ago.

Bob Orlando: 29:11

Sometimes for me, like when I do get up that courage to just send a quick message be like, hey, how's your life? Like, I look it, I get it open and I start typing and I'm like, my last message was eight years ago, this is gonna be if I send this

James Avramenko: 29:25

that's totally something I end and you know, and I've gone through a lot of periods of my life where I've been way too outspoken in ways that I shouldn't have been and had been way too, like mean, like, I've been mean before and, and just like, I'm so ashamed of that and so embarrassed by that. And so there are people who I would love to reach out to, but I just feel so embarrassed, you know, and I don't know how to navigate that stuff. Right. So I so I, you know, in the really healthy way I just ignore it.

Bob Orlando: 30:01

I just go with Miss frizzles message and let's get messy. Yeah, exactly. Just mess it up do it wrong,

James Avramenko: 30:08

you know what I and it's something I try. I love that. And it's actually I think that actually is a much deeper message than then it's maybe even giving credit credit for is like, like, we should be willing to fuck up more and we should be willing to admit that we fucked up more you know and and it's just so fucking scary right and and and i think that it's also I think the reason it's so scary is because we've been conditioned with social media to believe that we're all these little micro celebrities, you know, and we never know what the thing is that's gonna blow up and become news. And so like, we're so terrified of saying the wrong thing to the wrong person, and then going to the wrong person. And then it's suddenly snowballing and now your life is over. Because of, you know, any number of dumb things. And like, obviously, yes, there are people who have said and done things who deserve. You know, I don't know if I want to say punishment, but you who deserve some kind of accountability. Yeah, right. But I don't think that that is the appropriate treatment for every single person in every single scenario. And so, so but but but the problem is we have the tools to do so. But we don't have the knowledge or understanding of those tools in order to parse out how to treat each individual moment. And so instead, it just becomes a sledgehammer, you know, and that's the stuff that's really scary, right?

Bob Orlando: 31:32

Yeah. I mean, I, every time that I have gotten up the courage to actually just send the message that I was like, Oh, this could blow up in my face. Like, it rarely rarely does. It's usually a good outcome. But it's still super scary in that moment. Yeah,

James Avramenko: 31:49

buddy. vulnerability is I mean, you know, my, my favorite poet, is this guy named Saul Williams. And he has this reoccurring theme through a lot of his writing that vulnerability is power. Right? That, you know, we it's guns, it's not bombs, it's not muscles. The real true power is invulnerability because of what it reveals about yourself. And, and, and how, you know, the only thing because all those things are false control. Right? You know, you're not actually in control of a gun, you're not actually in control of a situation with a bomb. That's all fake. But when you are vulnerable, you are demonstrating authentic control of yourself, which is the only thing that you have genuine control over. Yeah. And and. And that's the scariest kind of moment you can be in right is when you're authentically yourself, right? Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah, right, exactly. Because the whoops, there goes my mask, and there goes my preconceived belief of what I am. Now suddenly, I'm actually living in the moment as myself. And I have to accept that I'm a, I'm great. And I'm funny, and I'm loving, and I'm caring, and I'm warm, and I'm also a complete piece of shit. And I've also totally fucked up. And I've also been a complete asshole. And I've also said the wrong thing, right? You know, and you have to you have to make you have to reconcile both those things in that one little meat sack that you are right. And that's really fucking hard.

Bob Orlando: 33:16

When you get to your, if you put yourself on the other side of that conversation, and someone comes to you to be totally vulnerable, and like, like, expose it to you, you're not gonna be like, you were mean, to me that one time in grade nine, I don't care. Right. But like, when you're on the other side, and you're trying to be vulnerable, and like, show up as your authentic self. Like, you can't hear that side of your head being like, No, no, no, if you were on the other side, and like we're trying had someone trying to be super vulnerable with you, you'd be empathetic with them and form better connection. But that's not what's going through your head in that moment. When you're like, uptake off my mask.

James Avramenko: 33:51

Well, that's just it like, like emotions. Emotions aren't rational, right? emotions aren't reasonable, you know, and they're not. They're not there to be thought about. They're there to be felt, you know, and, and, and it's what's so I think it's why people are so scared of them in today's day and age where we're so stem based, right where we're so logic based, where the internet is basically an algorithm, right? It's just math, essentially. Right? And so, where the fuck does emotion come into play in math? Like, technically it does it right. And so it makes us fucking terrified. When we, when we suddenly are faced with open text, right? When it's not a closed, closed parentheses, it's now like, Oh, well, what do you feel about that? And it's like, oh,

Bob Orlando: 34:37

you want to get me out of my head? No, no, no. That's why these feelings happen outside of where I live. That's all up here. Okay. But with math and feelings, I have had some math problems that have made me feel some pretty deep feelings. Fully disconnected.

James Avramenko: 34:58

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I was gonna say Actually, anytime I hear the word math, I do feel something. Oh, yeah, it's unmitigated, or this is actually a question that I've been looking forward to talking to you about, cuz I have one, but I'm not sure what you'll bring to this. And I'm curious, what is your most vivid memory of our friendship?

Bob Orlando: 35:26

Ah, well, I'm interested to hear yours as well. Mine. It was really early on in our friendship. It was while we were, like all still in Vancouver, and I hosted a poker game at my parents house one night, and everybody was gonna come over, and you showed up like, a half an hour early. Or everybody was two hours late. I don't know which one. But you were there.

James Avramenko: 35:54

Yeah,

Bob Orlando: 35:55

yeah, you were you were there, like a half hour before everybody else. And we just kind of open a beer and sat on the couch and chatted about life for like, half an hour. And like, we were talking about, like, what's going on in your life? What do you like about it? Like, where are your like, pain points? Like, what are we doing about it? And we both just kind of like, opened up and talked about what was going on for us,

James Avramenko: 36:15

man, Bob, I remember that night that was and that was actually like, that was like, I think that was the first time that you and I like we're just like one on one chatting. I think it always just been like to drunk set a party until then. And yeah, no. And I remember being, you know, I'm, like, you know, like, speaking of like, being terrified of vulnerability. I remember showing up and being like, Oh, fuck, I'm early. I fucked up. Oh, fuck, what do I do? And then so quickly, it being like, Oh, this is actually like, way more what I wanted to be doing. Like, you know, like, because like, I'm, you know, don't focus on finding good and it's fun, whatever. But like, I'm way more into like, one on one. Let's just fucking get into it. Right? Yeah, yeah,

Bob Orlando: 37:02

it's funny because like, I am way more comfortable in a group. Like if you put me in like, a group of like, 1215 people, we're all just kind of like hanging out and doing something like that is my sweet spot where I'm like, in that moment, I'm feeling like I'm connecting with everybody. And then everybody leaves and I'm like, I don't know anything new about any of those people. I'm not actually any more connected to them than when then before it happened. And like those one on one things, usually they make me like quite uncomfortable. Like, what if I don't know what to say next? What if this starts getting boring and we have to do something What do I have in my back pocket for like things that we can do if the conversation runs dry? like do I still have a Nintendo

James Avramenko: 37:42

Where's tha AC adap

Bob Orlando: 37:46

Let me just go crawl into the attic for a couple of minutes. I got to find the cables for this thing.

James Avramenko: 37:52

Exactly. You know it's funny cuz it because the one I always think about is actually very, very similar to that is when we went on that really weird oddly tense houseboating weekend. Yeah. And you had to be you had to be sober because you were driving. Yeah. And, and I just was like, oh, man, this is bullshit for Bob. But But I remember one of the like, one of the like, kind of afternoons everybody was like retreating from the sun and you were up driving and I came up and hang out with you hung out with you for a while. And again, it was just one of those like, we just shot the shit and you told me all about like, how you went vegetarian and all the cooking you were doing and? And man, I was so like, I felt so inspired by that. It was like, every time I talk to you about vegetarianism, I'm like, I can do it. I can do this. Like, I feel like I need you. I need you to make a like a like a like a vegetarian guide for me to be like you could do this

Bob Orlando: 38:56

That'll be our fri ndship after Facebook. It's j st me saying you text every wee or so being like, you can do

James Avramenko: 39:02

Well, because I always get so pumped up but I talk to you. And then I'm like, but steak. Or or what? Or worse, what I'll do is I will like I'll go pretty vegetarian for like a week or so. And then I'll be like, Oh, I'm so cold. I'm so old all the time.

Bob Orlando: 39:20

It must be because of the vegetarianism. It's gotta be it's gotta be the only thing that's changed, not the

James Avramenko: 39:28

Oh no, no, it's not that I live in fucking Saskatoon. It's minus 30 again, eah, no, no, that has nothing o do with it. It's goddamn reen beans, you know? Yeah. So, um, you know, we've been talking about what it takes to be a friend what it takes to be, you know, engaged with each other and what are some things you could do and, and, and I like to sort of try and distill that down into something have like actionable steps for not only for the listeners, but for myself, you know, I take such inspiration from the answers that come out of this question. And so I'm wondering what you think it's going to take to be a good friend in 2021. And then, like, going forward?

Bob Orlando: 40:15

Yeah, I think that if everything from like social media and from this quarantine, I've really just like, brought to the forefront that all of these connections that we make through Facebook or online or through like, group chats, they're, they're like, tenuous at best. They're there. Like, I learned a bit of information about them, I put the rosiest colored filtered things about my life out there. And I think, you know, if you want to be a good friend to someone, not just in 2020, but like or in 2021. But like, at any time, it's rea ly just about showing up and bei g present. And like, in a sma ler capacity. So whether it' sending a message that is you have to be courageous and is ter ifying to do. Or just, yeah, you know, the quick text message tha says, Hey, how are you goi g? Or you got time to chat on aturday, and like, set up a one on one call with somebody jus to like, learn about their lif , tell them about your life and be open and honest about, you know, what's good, and wha 's bad.

James Avramenko: 41:23

Yeah, man. I mean, I think that you nailed it right on the head with the you know, you got to be courageous like it takes, it takes engagement, right. It's not about like, we can't be, we can't be complacent anymore. And I think that, you know, if, if this, if anything good is gonna come out of this. And I know that that even already sounds sort of weird and problematic, and I'm not totally sure I'm okay with it. But like, if something good is gonna come out of this experience, it's got to be that we can't be complacent. And we can't be complicit, right. Like, we have to, we have to be active in our lives. And we have to be active in the lives of the people around us. Because Because nobody else is doing for us. Right? It's like, it's like, wait, you know, it's like I you know, you know, for myself, I'm always like, Oh, well, why didn't my acting career ever take off? And it's like, well, how many fucking auditions reading? How much training were you doing? Like, what were you doing? To push yourself into that world? You know, and that goes for everything. It's like, well, what are you doing to push yourself and to be engaged in? In your friends lives? Right? Yeah.

Bob Orlando: 42:25

Yeah. Like, like, the audition. One is a good example. Like, you're not gonna get good friendships out of sitting around and waiting for good friendships to happen, you got to go make it happen.

James Avramenko: 42:36

Yeah. I hate to I hate to say it, but we've come to that part of the show. But before I before I pull up your Facebook, you know, man, like, I'm just, I'm, I'm so grateful. You are my friend. I'm so thankful that we've met and you know, that you're just like, you're just who you are, like, you're just such a ball of positive positivity in my week, whenever we cross paths. And I you know, and I know, like, sometimes we sometimes we should talk about poker, and I love it. And, and I just know, you know, one thing I'm eternally grateful for you is that I know that behind it all you've got my back, and I know that and I feel it and, and I and I hope you know that you do too. You know, like, you've got that for me. Right? And yeah, you know, so it's just like, Yeah, man, like, I just, I'm, I'm really lucky to be your friend. And I'm really grateful.

Bob Orlando: 43:37

I'm really glad to have you as a friend and I'm grateful that you're in my life and I'm most grateful that I can make you laugh because your laugh is my favorite part.

James Avramenko: 43:48

It's not hard. Like, I have to like throw my head away from the mic, so I don't

Bob Orlando: 44:01

know, but I always enjoy spending time with you.

James Avramenko: 44:04

Yeah, man. It's great. And I'm just like, I love I love these chances to one on one and catch up with you. It's always it's always such a treat. You know? We got to do one last thing So Bob Orlando. Here we go.

Bob Orlando: 44:17

Moment of truth.

James Avramenko: 44:23

It's frozen.

Bob Orlando: 44:27

Seems like the internet doesn't want us to be unrated.

James Avramenko: 44:39

We are no longer Facebook friends.

Bob Orlando: 44:42

Oh, my feeds gonna be so much lighter.

James Avramenko: 45:13

And that is that thank you once more to Bob for coming on the show. He is just such a gem of a man and I'm so lucky to have him in my life. Speaking of being lucky to have someone in their life, why don't y'all tell apple and Spotify how lucky you are to have friends in your life with a nice sweetie pie five star review, share the links, tell your friends, I need your help to get the word out. Mostly because I am laughably inept when it comes to social media promotion, and I really just need all the help I can get in some Facebook news, Facebook, friends, whatever, I've got a Patreon that's technically gone live this week. I don't know if people still do Patreon or not. But I feel like there's like a test pilot to gauge interest. But there's all kinds of goodies on there exclusive content, writing ad free and director's cuts of episodes, as well as all kinds of other fun stuff, though, starting at just five bucks a month. So, you know, am I worth five bucks a month you let me know. But that is it for me this week. So I will sign off with a small challenge. This week. Tell someone how grateful you are that they are in your life. thank someone for just being who they are. Tell them all the gooey feelings you've always had for them, but I've been too neurotic to share. You'd be absolutely amazed how you can brighten up someone's day with just a little bit of genuine kindness. But with that, I will leave you and I'll say I'll see you next week. But that of course will be then. And this of course is now so for now. Just remember I love you and I will catch you soon. Foreign safety y'all