Andria Campbell (transcript)

Andria Campbell

SPEAKERS
Andria Campbell, James Avramenko

James Avramenko 00:00
Friendless is presented by the Saskatchewan Podcast Network. My babies What is up Welcome back to Friendless, the show about losing all your Facebook friends, one hour at a time. As always, I am your host, James Avramenko. This week, I have another friend from my deep dark High School past, Andria Campbell, Andria and I talk about all kinds of fun stuff, the wild world of marketing, the need for transparency in corporate behavior and leadership, emotional intimacy with friends, and the 11 satanic rules of the earth. It was an absolute blast chatting with Andria, and you know what, I think you’re going to have an absolute blast listening to it. So that’s it for me. Without further ado, let’s just jump right into my interview with Andria Campbell here on Friendless. It’s so bizarre. I gotta say it’s one of the weirdest experiences that I’ve I’ve especially been diving into recently is reconnecting with high school connections, because I find them to be surprisingly vivid still, in my mind, and yet, so far away. And I and I don’t realize it until we get talking. And we’re like, oh, yeah, that was like, you know, like, 2003 2004. And it’s like, oh, yeah, that was 16 years ago.

Andria Campbell 01:45
We old we old.

James Avramenko 01:49
And like, and shockingly so to like I do you. Do you have that experience where you’re sort of like, are you just perpetually 25 in your body and in your mind, and yet, then you’re like sciatica kind of kicks in and you’re like, Oh,

Andria Campbell 02:03
yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m hoping I’m hoping I feel 25 of my body for the next 30 years. That’s that’s really the dream. No, it’s, it’s wild. And my whole thing is like, and don’t ask me why, but like, I’m really upset about the fact that like, if I die right now, in some sort of dramatic fashion, the newspaper article is not going to say like, young woman, hit by bus. It’s just gonna say woman. Woman of average age.

James Avramenko 02:32
Yeah. Well, and especially, I mean, I right now look like a caveman. So they’ll be like, indeterminant old man, you know?

Andria Campbell 02:42
Like, if if I’m going to if I’m going to go before I’m like, 70 then like, I want it’s got to be it’s got to be tragic. So it’s got to say young woman and I am I’m out of the tragedy zone.

James Avramenko 02:53
Yep. Yep. I you know, I’ve been thinking about how it’s so funny that you remind me of this because I was I was oddly thinking about this a little while back about how you when I was in my like, late teens, early 20s. And, and I would be in the shower, I would be practicing my…

Andria Campbell 03:09
Where is this going?

James Avramenko 03:11
I would be practicing my like, my like, Thank you speeches, you know, with like, yeah, like, okay, so when I win a Grammy, this is going to be my Thank you speech for this. And when I win an Oscar, this is going to be my Thank you. And I practice that. And now in my early 30s, I think about my obituary, and I think about like, what nice things people will say and I realized how surface it’ll have to be because there’ll be so little put in

Andria Campbell 03:37
your like, obituary is your like, lifetime award acceptance speech?

James Avramenko 03:45
Yeah, it’ll be like, James self published two ebooks of middling to low quality poetry, and desperately tried to host the podcast to very lukewarm success. He’s remembered by a very disappointed wife.

Andria Campbell 04:08
Super random, but I was talking to a friend of mine who’s about to have her first baby. And she was just kind of talking about like, the, all the pressures in regards to like, breastfeeding or formula feeding or whatever. And I was like, Steph. Listen, I was formula fed. And look at me. Look at me, and then I thought about it objectively, and I was like, basically homeless and jobless.

James Avramenko 04:35
That like, you really, you really walk the razor’s edge. When you say something like, look at me as an example of something. You could really fall on both sides of that blade.

Andria Campbell 04:47
Like, you know what, I think you should go organic breast milk for the rest of its life. Don’t do what I did.

James Avramenko 04:52
It should just be all they eat for their time. They should never eat anything but breast milk.

Andria Campbell 04:57
Yeah, yeah, please don’t follow my path.

James Avramenko 05:01
So, Andria holy shit in has been, it has been legitimately 15 years since we saw each other.

Andria Campbell 05:08
That’s so crazy.

James Avramenko 05:09
That’s fucked up. And I and I, and it’s and it’s one of those weird experiences that I’m that I’m constantly trying to sort of process of like, I have a vague, like a vague image of your life because of Facebook. It’s probably completely wrong. And it’s probably completely fictional, because that’s what Facebook is. But I have those weird feelings of like, Oh, yeah, she’s doing this and she’s doing good. And I totally know and and yet, like, we haven’t actually directly said words to each other since 2005.

Andria Campbell 05:44
Yeah, that is shocking.

James Avramenko 05:46
right?

Andria Campbell 05:46
When you put it that way.

James Avramenko 05:49
So how’s life?

Andria Campbell 05:53
You know what Life Life is like it’s actually pretty good life is it’s definitely in a different place than I would have expected for like this age, but life is really good.

James Avramenko 06:07
I know you’re setup in you’re in Calgary, right?

Andria Campbell 06:10
Yeah.

James Avramenko 06:10
And uh, but you didn’t study in Calgary. You You went off? Did you went out east?

Andria Campbell 06:17
Yeah, I went to McGill. So I was in Montreal for six years, came back started doing the work thing. And then, you know, just real deep down that rabbit hole until I wasn’t seeing daylight anymore. So that you know that that catches up from like, 2014 to 2020. But ya know, life. Life is good.

James Avramenko 06:41
what kind of industry are you getting into? Because I know like in Calgary, it’s so easy to have these sort of like ephemeral business jobs, you know, that just sort of like blend into the like, the glass Kingdom of plus fifteens. And like, odd cafeterias that come out of nowhere.

Andria Campbell 07:01
You know, I’m, I in a way I kind of consider myself lucky because I’ve never done the downtown run job life, which is not there’s anything wrong with it, but it just, I don’t know that I would thrive. So I work.

James Avramenko 07:12
Oh there’s lots wrong with it. It’s fine.

Andria Campbell 07:15
I don’t want your business fans to be offended?

James Avramenko 07:19
Oh, whatever. They’re not listening. No, no, no business that is listening to Facebook.

Andria Campbell 07:27
Sorry, this is marketing your business on Facebook. This is this social media in a digital age. It’s fine. But yeah, no, I am. So yeah, I work in marketing and PR, but I’ve been really lucky to do it. And it’s been a ton of super random industries. Some of them very Alberta-esque like, I’ve worked in agriculture and stuff. And now I, I do a lot for energy providers. When we say energy, I mean, like electricity versus oil and gas. Yeah, so doing a lot of just creative concepting and PR work and kind of just everything under that General. Speaking to your audience umbrella. Yeah, some cool things.

James Avramenko 08:12
You know, it’s it’s such an It’s funny how, when you say you know, you say energy in Alberta, and you’re really you again, you’re kind of walking the tightrope, because you could be talking about a few things. And same thing with marketing, where it’s like, there’s actually some really, really fascinating branches. And then there’s some very, very cynical, you know, not so cool branches. But

Andria Campbell 08:35
oh, I have days, I mean, for the most part, I like because of my background is in on the PR side. So any kind of marketing work that I do, I try to base it off of like, this is the values of your audience, then like, you can’t just say those your values, like you actually have to live that experience. And then that’s what we’re going to communicate is like, hey, this isn’t we don’t to say this is important to us, we’re actually going to act like it is and then communicate that.

James Avramenko 08:59
That is something that is really I’d actually really love to hear your perspective on this. Like, I’d like to expand a little bit more on that, because I think that something we’re seeing, you know, so I work in the sort of miasma of the theatre industry, and a lot of these companies and I think it’s happening across the board. It’s just very, it’s very sharp in the theater world is a lot of these companies are really being called out for, you know, proclaiming themselves allies or proclaiming themselves to live a certain type of lifestyle and to encourage a type of lifestyle, while rewarding a very different type of life and person and work ethic. And, and it’s really, I think we’re at a point now with audiences. They’re really discerning and they’re really what’s the word like, not complex, but

Andria Campbell 09:50
like their, their, their critical thinking?

James Avramenko 09:52
yeah, I think we’re actually I think our audiences are actually a lot more Oh, God. I’m forgetting, like I want to say mature, but that’s not the right word.

Andria Campbell 10:03
I saw a meme today that was like, You can’t just be like, I can’t remember the English word for it. And then people will think you’re bilingual.

James Avramenko 10:12
Yeah I can’t remember the English word for it. But it’s, it’s very complex, and it’s very mature. But it’s, uh, you know, I don’t think we necessarily give enough credit to the discerning eye of the audience. And I think, because so much of it is subconscious, that we don’t even necessarily realize what we’re sort of parsing out as we look at things, but we do know that it’s a lie, right, like we can see when something’s bullshit,

Andria Campbell 10:38
Oh totally. And I think, I think some of that has to do with, you know, who’s at the helm of a lot of companies, right? And especially because having that two way communication, and basically, what you’d like is you have a generational gap, right, where the people who are the decision makers didn’t grow up in an era of, I feel like I’m gonna back myself into a corner here, but didn’t necessarily experience the two way communication the way the younger generation has. And so there’s just kind of a, it’s a little bit more laid back in terms like, oh, like, they’re just, they’re just the public, like, they don’t know what we’re doing behind closed doors, it’s fine, it’s fine. Versus, you know, when you really come of age in the social media era, you know, you know, that’s not the case. And, like, we, as consumers know how easy it is for a company to say exactly whatever they want, they can say whatever they want, whenever they want, because we can do it as people now.

James Avramenko 11:33
Yes.

Andria Campbell 11:34
You know, we all have a platform now we know companies do too. So and especially with like, this just the saturation of bullshit that’s out there. 90% of time, people just assume it’s bullshit.

James Avramenko 11:45
Yeah, and I think that’s the thing, too, I think the problem is that our baseline for communication is bullshit now, and so it’s really hard to trust anybody isn’t just speaking out of their ass, you know? And I wonder, I wonder in the PR game, like, what, what kind of experience Are you having trying to convince the public that it isn’t bullshit? Like, is it? Is it possible to? Like, I guess what, I’m driving it? Is it possible to trust a brand right now? Or are the is everything just fucked?

Andria Campbell 12:18
I think companies just have to change gear to long term thinking into, I mean, I, I say this, like, in boardrooms to them all the time, like you, you actually have, you actually have to be a good person. Like, that’s, that’s the difference now. And it’s a long game. So you have to build those proof points again, and again, again, over time, by showing up and doing the right thing. So that when you inevitably have a fuckup, because it will happen. People are going to be way more forgiving. Cuz they’re like, Okay, well, you know, they did they did do this, this this. It’s probably a fuckup, then, you know, you handle that the right way. Okay, great. Versus Yeah, like, the companies who are just like, Oh, well, let’s just, let’s just write a check, or let’s just, you know, get a story in the news. And I’m like, I don’t personally do a lot of like, the media relations side, I did super young, and like, in my career, and I was like, this is just such shit. And also, I don’t like talking to strangers, so no,

James Avramenko 13:17
yeah. Yeah, it feels like a lot of the audience. You know, I think a lot of the sort of, like, upper crust and the more disconnected and the, you know, what, however, different descriptive terms you want to use for them. I think there’s a lot of sort of this, like, fear of being watched and fear that I think there’s the sentiment that like, everybody’s like, picking, like picking a fight, like young people are looking for a fight. And I think, I think the reason they’re feeling that is because like, they kind of are, but it’s because you’ve been feeding us bullshit for so long, that there’s just no way to trust us, or for us to trust you. And I think so, so much of this is reliant on messaging and yet, like words, I mean, think about it, like this way, like, verbal communication is only something like 10% of human communication. So your messaging really doesn’t count for shit if your behavior, which is like the 90% of communication, demonstrates that you’re a piece of shit. Right?

Andria Campbell 14:21
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, I think that, you know, organizations, if they really want to get on a good track and have a good reputation, they’re just gonna have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul and slog through a lot of trolls. And a lot of negativity because, you know, that first thing you put out well it kind of bullshit but by the time you’ve, you know, continue down that path, like it’s gonna, as long as you’re actually like, walking the talk. You can get to the other side of it, but a lot of like, a lot of companies just won’t pull trig on doing the right thing because they’re like, someone’s gonna attack us on the internet like, well, honey, They already are.

James Avramenko 15:01
Yeah, well, and that’s just sit, it’s like it’s gonna happen one way or another, you might as well do your best to get through it because the longer you put it off, it’s almost like it’s like masks. It’s like wearing masks. It’s like, nobody’s, like stoked to wear masks. Nobody’s like, Oh, yes. Finally, I get to wear a medical mask in public like, but it’s like, if we all did it together, we would have to do it less down the road. And it would be done sooner

Andria Campbell 15:27
Do you. Just to like, briefly go down the mass tangent, though. Have you found that? Like, I realized how much I rely on, like facial expressions to communicate with strangers? And it’s getting awkward out there. It’s getting real awkward

James Avramenko 15:43
I will say, I will say, because I do I rely on it, but I don’t. I don’t like it. So I actually have found quite a comfort in masks because it gives me an excuse to disconnect in a way that I always wish I could have. You know,

Andria Campbell 16:00
that’s kind of freeing in its solitude.

James Avramenko 16:03
exactly, exactly also I just get to practice my smizing right. You know, I get to just like, I get to booty tooch and squint at everyone. I mean, although I will, I will say it, I will literally contradict myself from two breaths ago. It’s kind of cool that we get to like, be Mortal Kombat characters in public now. Like, like eight year old James would be stoked.

Andria Campbell 16:30
so stoked.

James Avramenko 16:31
Right, you know, just like, what I get to be subzero in public. Of course, yeah.

Andria Campbell 16:36
Oh, my God, if I was, if I was like, 12. And actually, I might, I might still lean into this, like, just given you know, fall fashion, that like, I would be out in a cat burglar outfit every day. No, no, that’s, that’s incorrect. I’d swap that with like a Western train robber here and there. But either way I would. I wouldn’t live a life of crime. Yeah. I mean, I don’t actually do the crimes. I just look like a point to

James Avramenko 16:57
I would do. Exactly, exactly. I was gonna say i would i would commit aesthetic crimes. You know, although no, that’s the wrong. That’s the wrong messaging. I mean,

Andria Campbell 17:04
for the fashion.

James Avramenko 17:08
How do I say this? I would look good. I would look like I’m committing crime. But But yeah, not.

Andria Campbell 17:15
I’d live a whole Fantasy Life. Mm hmm. It’d be because I’m not against doing it. Now. This is also I think, probably something that maybe non theater kids don’t do. Right. Think of all the ways we can dress up.

James Avramenko 17:27
Right. And I guess that is kind of one of the big push backs from sort of like normie culture is like, not understanding the joys of like, just throw it on a bib and being like, oh, how do you do? Just going on with your day? I just be like, well, I got that out of my system. Yeah. Yeah, we need more bibs in our lives.

Andria Campbell 17:55
wigs, hats, sunglasses, disguises in general,

James Avramenko 17:57
right? I just, you know, it’s so I’m in a, I’m in a place in my life, where I’m actually kind of transitioning away from theater, I find, I find this sort of like the business element of it, and the sort of inner workings of, you know, boards and grants and, and all those kind of elements of it to be really alienating and toxic and very, very corrupt. So I’m actually moving away from it in my personal life, and yet, I still really, I just can’t understand people who go through their entire lives, not like doing silly voices while they’re cooking breakfast, or like, not just belting out show tunes in the car, or any of those little things that like, yeah, the like, like, sort of ingrained theater kids end up doing. It’s so natural and, and I’m like, Oh, you just like, just go through your life. Like just like, keeping that in.

Andria Campbell 18:51
That’s a like, I do it. I’m gonna do it on my own, but like, there is nothing like the joy of entertaining people. Like when you’re an idiot, and people around you’re like actually cracking up. It’s, there’s nothing like that. It’s so it’s thrilling. It’s the highest of highs like I’ll keep going all day, you know, that box? It’s on my head. Did I just fall off the counter. Yeah, I did, it was all part of it.

James Avramenko 19:15
It is this thing of like people are so it’s very bizarre in that, like, I know, for me, I sort of came to it as like, I mean, it was definitely, you know, third child syndrome and wanting some validation and wanting some attention that I wasn’t getting from my parents and all those kinds of things. But then it’s also like, it’s like a form of vulnerability that people are really afraid to indulge in of like, like when you you know, when you when you look dumb, you know, when you do something looks dumb, and and people are like, Oh, I couldn’t do that because then I’d look dumb, but it’s like, Who cares? Like I’m not dead. I’m not I’m not I’m not in danger.

Andria Campbell 19:57
I think you know when I hang out with with friends They’re like, you know, even just like a week, we were golfing and I’m a terrible golfer, but my friends were like, No, no, like, we bring we bring you because you’re entertaining. And I’m like, Guys, that means so much.

James Avramenko 20:12
It really does.I like like, what an incredible compliment to be, like the clown of the group.

Andria Campbell 20:21
Yeah, exactly. It’s like, it’s funny because like, I think, I mean, I, I kind of had like, the opposite experience, you were like, I’m the oldest child. So I went through the first, whatever, you know, actually, I put a lot of years being more of that, like, trying to fit that, like, type a mold with this, you know, idiot on the inside, just trying to like break free. And I think that’s why, you know, I loved the theater stuff and the drama stuff, because I was like, okay, like, that’s where I can be most like myself. And now as an adult, like, Fuck that. Like, I no, oh, professional workplace. What is professionalism? It’s fine. You want to dance on the desk? Let’s do this. And it’s so wonderful. I think like, maybe, I guess everyone kind of you get to this age, and you’re like, yeah, like, I feel like I’m more of myself and ever, but like, that’s why because I give no fucks anymore about not being that person. And like, Oh, my God, there were so many wasted opportunities.

James Avramenko 21:25
These days, how would you define what friendship means in sort of, to you and to sort of modern society? Which is such a weird, I kind of hate using that terminology. I mean, like, in today’s modern age, because it’s 2020.

Andria Campbell 21:44
no, but what’s what’s really interesting is I was I was thinking about that. And, you know, like, I don’t, I don’t know that I have necessarily a clear definition. But what I do know is that it’s a really interesting time to be asked that because with, you know, the current landscape, and COVID, and blah, blah, blah, and the way that we’ve had to change how you engage with people, I have reconnected and grown closer, with so many people in my life, like, as a result of the past, you know, six, seven months. And so I guess it’s just, it’s just interesting to be asked that because I think, for me, friendships, a few things like friendship is because it comes in many shapes and forms. And I think, what’s also, I’m all over the place here. I think what’s changed for me, prior to, like, when I look at how I would define a friend, prior to even the last few years, is that person would have to like, check a lot of boxes. And they have to, like, you know, I’d want them to, you know, have a certain dynamic and support me in the following ways and be this and be that and blah, blah, blah, and that has totally gone out the window. Whereas now, like, I you know, as a collective, I feel like all of my friends, like they’re, they’re all so different. And I know who, you know, I know who to go to when I need tough love. I know who to go to, when I want to like laugh until I cry I want you know, and so, I don’t think there’s one clear definition of what a friend is. Other than I think friends are the people who will put their put their phones down.

James Avramenko 23:26
Ha yeah, I understand that completely. Yeah.

Andria Campbell 23:30
I think that’s the consistent. Like, that’s the piece. It’s like, it’s the people who, well, whatever your conversation looks like, whatever your dynamic looks like, whether it’s serious, whether it’s hilarious, whether you’re traveling, whether you just like, need to have a quick one on one, they’re the people who were like, we’ll give you their full attention, and you’ll give them yours.

James Avramenko 23:49
That’s a great way of putting it I really like that the idea of like, putting the phone down is such a nice, like, yeah, like, which, which makes me feel like such a bad friend. But

Andria Campbell 24:00
I was gonna say I just this just to be clear, this does not mean I’m nailing everyone, right? Everyone’s like, yeah, Andria is like we’re trying to be friends with you. All over here. Meanwhile, you’re sitting there being like, hold on, hold on. Just let me just one more. Okay. Do you think that because, okay, a lot of people refer to their significant other or their partner as their best friend. Do you think that’s possible? Or do you think those are two different things?

James Avramenko 24:36
Oh, yeah, I think it’s absolutely possible. But I also don’t know if it’s necessarily healthy. I mean, which is funny because in the next breath, I’m about to say, I do think my wife is my best friend. We are also in a place though, where we are so isolated. And

Andria Campbell 24:59
I’m gonna need you Be everything right now.

James Avramenko 25:01
Yeah, you know, and and like, and I’m like, I’m so grateful that I have her and I’m so grateful that we can be partners on so many levels. And yet I do, I do think that it is still really important to have someone else that each person can kind of go to and not as like a place to go be a vent, uh, you know, the one place you get to go shit, talk your wife or whatever, you know, but but I do think that I do think that it’s really healthy to have intimate relation like not not physically intimate, necessarily, but like,

Andria Campbell 25:39
oh my my!

James Avramenko 25:40
It’s like look. If y’all are cool with that, that’s cool. But we don’t we don’t play that game. You know, but, but like, but like, I think I think emotional intimacy. And and then like other forms, you know, spiritual intimacy, if that’s what you need, or, you know, those those types of things, I think it’s really important to have outlets outside of your marriage. It’s actually something that I explore a lot in my, in my a lot of my arts and have really driven for a long time is like, I think, I think men really need emotional intimacy partners that aren’t their wife. I think they need other men who they can be really deeply vulnerable and emotional with.

Andria Campbell 26:24
That sounding board and that perpective.

James Avramenko 26:26
yeah, you know, there’s, there’s a thing, there’s a thing that I have brought up to a lot of my, like, my masculine friends, that they all have sort of had the same resounding feeling but none of them have ever been able to express is like, like, straight men are fucking weird, okay? Like, like, straight men are so repressed and so nervous about the dumbest things, you know, like, like, it’s that whole thing of like, you know, men are scared, women will embarrass them, women are scared men will kill them, you know, like, it’s like, like, the things that men are nervous about are so dumb, and, and yet, they’re not even able to express that to each other. And so I’ve often acted as a little bit of like, a sounding board for a lot of my male friends. And, and there’s this thing that always comes out where I’m a big believer in, in skin on skin. Because it’s so important to touch, right? Like, you know, babies will literally die in the crib if you don’t touch them. So So I tried like, like, how is that different for adults? Why does that change like men, you know, people need to be touched, right? And so I’ll, I’ll sort of initiate nothing weird. Not in like, I’m gonna start rubbing. So

Andria Campbell 27:41
listen, bro, take your shirt off.

James Avramenko 27:45
Let me just rub those buttery nipples. But just like, but like, but like, I think I think touch is so interrelated with vulnerability, which is so interrelated with, with, with health, that I try really hard to encourage my friends to touch and to, you know, and like if they need to, you know, hold hands and if they need to, like, and, and often they’ll feel this, like, almost like, ecstatic excitement over it, right? And then suddenly, they’re feeling this, like, flood of like, holy shit, that’s the thing I’ve been holding back, you know, and, and, and that’s something that you’re never actually, I don’t know if I should say, you, you’re never gonna get with your like, married partner. But it’s a different type of intimacy. It’s a different…

Andria Campbell 28:28
It’s totally different. I think it’s also, um, it’s also a different type of safety. Right. Like, you know, with your friends, like, like, it’s a different type of unconditional as well. Like, the interactions you have in your marriage. Sometimes I feel like your marriage or your relationship or your whatever, you know, whatever people are doing these days, or whatever you wanna call it.

James Avramenko 28:50
Listen, I read the first two chapters of sex at dawn. So I’m obviously polyamorous now and totally understand how that works.

Andria Campbell 29:01
You know, so when you’re out there with, you know, with all your sister wives and such, there’s still I kind of feel like there’s the weight of having a successful relationship. versus when you’re with your friends. That’s not there, like, their friends. Unless you like massively fuck up. Like, they’re your friends. Yep. So you be safe, you can be vulnerable. And I mean, hopefully, I mean, I’m gonna be like, Oh, yeah, like our relationships, you were always where the relationships gonna end because that’s not healthy. That’s not what I’m saying at all. But I think it’s just different, right? It’s just a totally different type of security.

James Avramenko 29:36
I understand that weight too, though, because I am somebody who I mean, look, I write poetry. I ruminate on the end of things a lot. But like, but I think it’s healthy to understand.

Andria Campbell 29:46
You are writing your obituary so.

James Avramenko 29:47
Yeah, right. Exactly. I mean, I do think I do think it’s healthy to accept that things end, though. You know, like, I don’t think we need to worry necessarily about that. I think. I think if, if more of us accepted that thing. Do end, and that’s okay. We’d have a lot less anxiety in our lives because so much of my fear comes from when this thing ends, I’m fucked, you know, whatever that thing may be, you know, and it’s like, oh, like, everything ends, that’s what happens. You die, computers break, jobs, contracts end. It’s true, though, right?

Andria Campbell 30:24
And even like, a friend of mine said, you know, recently to me and I know that like she, she had heard I think, like Dax Shepherd podcast or something like that. But it was it was a really good point. It’s kind of what I need to hear. at the, at the time. She’s like, you know, just because a relationship ends does not make it an unsuccessful relationship. And I was like oh.

James Avramenko 30:45
it’s not a failure for something to end by any means. It’s, it’s, it’s what happens. Every everything ends at some point, you know, and we might not, we might not like that thought, but everything ends so there’s literally no, like, if we’re gonna quantify it like that, then there is no winning.

Andria Campbell 31:03
Yeah, well, that shows that like, what like, what if you, if you die, then your life was a failure? Like well, okay, what’s the point?

James Avramenko 31:10
Exactly. Right. So it’s good.

Andria Campbell 31:11
But yeah, it’s so true. Like, you know, we immediately discount all the like, great things that happen in a relationship just because we’re like, well, it didn’t work. It didn’t work out. Thus, those things weren’t as real as I thought they were like, No, no, that was all. That was legit. That was all incredibly real and incredibly positive.

James Avramenko 31:28
Yeah. And now it’s over. And now on to the next thing, you know.

Andria Campbell 31:32
And then on to the next thing, or the next thing, the next thing,

James Avramenko 31:34
and then you die, and then somebody else goes on to the next thing,

Andria Campbell 31:37
and then you die. And then your funerals are very busy, because all the next things

James Avramenko 31:41
exactly, exactly. But you’ll never know it won’t matter because you’ll be dead. wellness, however you define it is achievable. You don’t even need to figure it all out yourself. Talk to connexus. They’ll give you guidance, motivation, and the push you need to reach your goals. They’ve got you. They’re your financial partner, and they know you can achieve your very best. Your financial best. prove them right. start right at connexus credit union.

Andria Campbell 32:19
What was the last embarrassing thing you googled?

James Avramenko 32:26
Oh, my God, let’s find out. Let me pull up my Google bar because I I’m somebody who will I will straight up. I’m like, I will Google questions all the time. Like, I’ll just be like, What’s the this with that thing. You know, and

Andria Campbell 32:40
I’m so excited right now.

James Avramenko 32:42
God, what is my last Google? Let’s see? Does it show me?

Andria Campbell 32:51
Can you Google how to see your Google history?

James Avramenko 32:55
No, that’s embarrassing. Oh, here we go. Okay, so the last I don’t even consider this embarrassing so much. But the last big Google deep dive I had was the, the the tenets of the Church of Satan. And, because it’s really interesting, because there’s the

Andria Campbell 33:20
it’s so different than what people think it is.

James Avramenko 33:22
Exactly. Exactly. And I so I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, he was writing a letter of recommendation for me for a grant. And he mentioned one of the 11 satanic rules. And, and he paraphrased it saying, essentially, what it is, is, you can’t complain about something you’ve chosen. We were talking about a lot of a lot of the the the sort of dialogue and the conversation in the art world right now is about you know, representation and, and money and who gets paid for what and, and lots of really, really valid arguments and, and lots of really valid pushback. At the same time to what this guy was saying was at the very base of it, we have to accept that we all chose this life. Nobody put a gun to our head and said, You have to be a poet for the rest of your life like nobody. Nobody’s making us live in the arts. So there is this element of it that’s like, this is life he chose. Canadians don’t like art. They just don’t we don’t have a culture that celebrates or appreciates art. So you don’t get to be frustrated when you chose a life of art that is then not celebrated and supported by Canadians because it’s just never going to happen. But then out of that conversation I got once more because I’ve I’ve definitely I’ve read about it in the past and I’ve always kind of jokingly called myself a Satanist. But then I was like, I really want to like know a little more. So I googled

Andria Campbell 35:00
Am I?

James Avramenko 35:00
right? And I was reading them and like the 11 rules, the 11 satanic rules and then like the nine, what do they call it? Like the nine affirmations or whatever the nine satanic statements. I was like, Fuck Yeah, absolutely. I’m a fucking Satanist this rules.

Andria Campbell 35:15
What a great Google search.

James Avramenko 35:17
right? It’s great. But yeah, do you want to hear them? Shall I read the 11 Satanic Rules?

Andria Campbell 35:23
Yeah! I think everybody is like in here being like I think it might be one too,.

James Avramenko 35:28
So these are these are the 11 satanic rules of Earth. These are what you should live by. Number one, do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked two not, right. Number two, do not tell your troubles to others, unless you are sure they want to hear them. Good advice. Number three, when in another’s lair, show him respect or do not go there.

Andria Campbell 35:55
That one, I’m taking that one up.

James Avramenko 35:57
right, Just respect somebody lair, man.

Andria Campbell 36:00
Take your damn shoes off.

James Avramenko 36:01
Right? If a guest in your lair annoys you treat, treat him cruelly and without mercy. So good. Number five, and this is an important one. This is an important one. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal. God these are good. Number six, do not take that which does not belong to you.

Andria Campbell 36:31
Wait, what’s the signal? What’s the signal? I think you have to I think you have to settle on, I think you have to agree what the mating signal is. But but but you can’t go until you get the signal. Number six, did not take that which does not belong to you. Unless it is a burden to the other person. And he cries out to be relieved. It’s a good one. I like that one. Right? Okay, leave it be unless they need help. Number seven, acknowledge the power of magic. If you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic, after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained. A little bit more esoteric for my liking. But you know, it’s cool. It’s cool. You know, if you’re using magic, be grateful. give credit where credit is due

James Avramenko 37:24
bingo, give credit where credit’s due.

Andria Campbell 37:25
You can’t be like guys just did this myself. If you got a little help, be it from you know, a friend or see your local Poltergeist.

James Avramenko 37:36
This is what he was talking about. This is number eight. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself. And I think that is such an important one where it’s like, Look, really, if you don’t have to go through it don’t. And if you if you don’t need to, or if you don’t need to go through it and you choose to you kind of don’t get to complain you know?

Andria Campbell 37:58
God I love that but it’s so easy to forget.

James Avramenko 38:01
Oh, of course.

Andria Campbell 38:02
Even if you chose something it’s like oh well but like it would be great but but this or this person or this thing and it’s like oh well you’re here so

James Avramenko 38:09
Tough titties. Number nine is important and a really quick one. Do not harm little children. That’s nice.

Andria Campbell 38:16
Always good

James Avramenko 38:17
right? Number 10 Doing better than other religions. I love when they I love when all these crazy alt right and cute on people are like the sickness want to harm children. They’re the pedophiles and then the Satanists are like we literally have a rule that says don’t hurt kids. You don’t have that in the Catholic Church. I’ll tell you that much.

Andria Campbell 38:35
No You’re busy trying to like not steal your neighbor’s donkey.

James Avramenko 38:40
I just want that donkey so bad. number 10 We’re so close to done these are really fun. I like these.

Andria Campbell 38:49
I never want this to end.

James Avramenko 38:51
Do not kill non human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.

Andria Campbell 38:57
I also like that I also like that.Just let them be.

James Avramenko 39:00
don’t hurt the animals, man. You know, this is the last one and this one’s so good. I love this one. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop. Destroy him.

Andria Campbell 39:25
I feel like we’re all really good, but there’s just like this. This subtle undertone of like, volatility. It’s all great, but if it’s not great, fuck their shit up.

James Avramenko 39:38
Yep. I love that. Show him no mercy.

Andria Campbell 39:43
Act with cruelty. Oh, sorry. I thought we were being nice. I’m not being nice. Okay.

James Avramenko 39:48
I do I mean, I can’t help but appreciate the idea of like, just be as good as like, not about good like just be as unharmful a person as possible. Like just Do no harm, unless you gotta. Alright, we have one last thing we got to do before we say goodbye. So I’m pulling up your Facebook and and I’m going to we go Andria Campbell

Andria Campbell 40:25
Oh the moments here

James Avramenko 40:27
we are no longer Facebook friends.

Andria Campbell 40:31
I’m over here I’m like add James on Instagram.

James Avramenko 40:35
You it’s literally it’s I mean I say it almost every episode but it really is the like running joke of the show where it’s like, I will literally unfriend someone and then open Instagram and I will add, it’s like, I call it pissing in the wind, right? It’s like being like pissing into a hurricane. Like, nothing’s changed.

Andria Campbell 41:02
The platform has evolved slightly because there’s there’s too many Karen’s on Facebook.

James Avramenko 41:06
Exactly. I’m just waiting. That’s the thing is that it’s like I you know, my mom, as far as I know, isn’t on Instagram. So so although she

Andria Campbell 41:15
Oh my god my mom, my, okay, just just like a little, little anecdote here. I get I get an ad one day, and I’m like, I’m like, wow, like, it’s my mom’s name. It’s like, Linda Campbell. 764-599-0120 my god the bots are getting really smart. Like and it’s fullymy mom and I’m like, Oh, Mom.

James Avramenko 41:41
She bought an ad?

Andria Campbell 41:44
Oops, sorry. My dog’s barking.

James Avramenko 41:46
It’s fine.

Andria Campbell 41:49
Yeah, no know, she, she accepted the the suggested username, which has about 18 extra. Like, she looks like one of the sex bots.

James Avramenko 42:03
You know, I’m not gonna lie. I like I always feel complimented when I get a bot because I’m like, Ah, you like, you were thinking of me. You thought you could scam me. That’s so nice.

Andria Campbell 42:15
Sometimes, sometimes I accept the following. I let them send me a little heart. And I’m like, that’s all I needed in my day.

James Avramenko 42:23
Have you ever been able to figure out if it’s like, Is it like a straight up bot? Or is it just like a fishing account? Like is it like, like, Is there someone there? Or is it purely like text bot?

Andria Campbell 42:35
You know what I would like to think there’s a human there. I would like to think that for example. Megan asked me to new 36201. I’m looking at actual on right now that when she sent me a heart this morning, and then when she said looking for a perfect match, wink, please click that. She kind of thinks but maybe they brought us together. Like

James Avramenko 42:57
I hope Megan’s happy.

Andria Campbell 42:59
Maybe my number one part of me wants to like, text her back and be like, Hey, girl, how’s it going?Think we can make this work? I did once. Sorry. This is gonna be the never ending episode. You know those CRA People are not much like the fake CRA people like phone crime ring people who call you and tell you that you’re going to be arrested because you can pay your tax.

James Avramenko 43:22
Yes. They’re like the cops are on their way. And we know where you live.

Andria Campbell 43:25
Yeah, yeah. So one day I was I was feeling like a spicy little squirrel. I was like. He was in there. And he’s like, man, man, like, I’m gonna. I’m gonna be I’m gonna need your social care. And I’m like, Uh huh. You don’t have it. He’s again, I’m gonna need a phone number. I’m like that you. You called me? And I was like, Sir, sir, are you flirting with me? And James, when I tell you that it took a turn, but I did not expect that would be an understatement. It was TSN turning point. He was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, my hands on pants. I’m getting so hard. And I was like,

James Avramenko 44:05
Oh no! He like, straight up really took that turn.

Andria Campbell 44:11
Like it was like a Jekyll and Hyde. Like he could just been sitting in his mom’s basement. Waiting, waiting. And it was like, he didn’t miss a beat. Just like my hands are on my dick. Can you get me all hard? And I was like, I’m sorry. I’m sorry, sir. And he’s like, How much? How much can I pay you? And I was like, Oh, well, you cannot you cannot afford me sir. You cannot afford me. Oh my. I’m gonna hang up now because despite the fact that I have a very high threshold for sexual jokes. I’m like I’m uncomfortable.

James Avramenko 44:43
Yep. Yep. Well, especially when you’re like Sir, you are representing the CRA right now. Come come

Andria Campbell 44:49
I am going to call your manager right. Trudeau

James Avramenko 44:55
I am calling Mr Trudeau

Andria Campbell 44:59
What hunted animals they have operating.

James Avramenko 45:02
Who are you recruiting?

Andria Campbell 45:07
I’m sorry, that was a sorry. That’s just you know, that’s if I can leave your listeners with one thing it would just be to don’t bite off more than you can chew if you’re if you’re gonna play games with the fake CRA agents.

James Avramenko 45:23
Oh my god,

Andria Campbell 45:24
You’re welcome everyone

James Avramenko 45:25
Fuck yeah well Andria one more time. I’m just gonna, I’ll I’ll wrap up this and then and then and then I’ll stop recording. But thank you so much for being on the show. That was this was just such a treat to catch up with you. And I really hope I really hope that you don’t get any more CRA folk calls.

Andria Campbell 45:47
Me too.

James Avramenko 45:48
Fuck. And that’s it. Thank you once more to Andrea for coming on the show. It was just such a treat chatting with her. She’s an incredible person and I just wish her all the best in the future. If you like this episode, let the internet know please pull up your phone right now. Open up your podcast app and give friendless a five star review. If you can do this, especially on Apple, it just helps the show so much. It helps raise awareness and it boosts our standings and you know when all the all the analytical stuff. I don’t understand the names and the words But please, it’s free. It’s easy and it helps the friendless so, so much, who doesn’t love doing something good and nice for free? Come on. If you want to follow me on social media, you can find friendless on all the platforms at friendlesspod and you could always follow me my personal accounts at an average mango on Instagram and Twitter. Next week, I have a super exciting and awesome interview with Chelsea Haberlin, who is an artistic director in Vancouver and also the co founder of one of my all time favorite theatre companies, so you cannot miss that one. But that’s next week. For now. Just keep sweet and I’ll catch you next time. fun and safe. y’all.


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